The Open Carry Argument

[chipbennett]

OC sends a message, here in PA we have it and some are fans. Personally and as an instructor I am not. It does't help that the vast majority of the time I see someone open carry it with a ****** gun show one size fits all holster, usually the one with the mag pouch on the gun, and a flimsy church belt.

As we have demonstrated time and time again is training, a good punch to the face brings your hands up to your face not down to the gun.

To me it is just tactical peacocking.

And this opinion is and remains nothing more than psychological projection.

 

[chipbennett]

And offering yourself up to someone who wants to use their gun to take yours. INGO's own LEOs have multiple stories of "Hey. Nice gun in your holster. I like it. Mine is in my hand pointed at you already, so I'll be taking yours. Oh, and your iphone and wallet while we are at it."

Yes, it can be used as a warning to discourage those not so motivated criminals to move on and leave you alone. But it can also go the other way.

While open carry does likely require greater exercise of situational awareness, statistics don't seem to demonstrate that such anecdotes are in any way representative. Don't make yourself a target by being naive or acting the fool, and a criminal intent on committing some criminal act is likely never to notice you or your gun. (Many studies show the "tunnel vision" tendency of such criminals.)

 

[2A_Tom]

Thanks Chip.

I was hoping someone more eloquent than I would make these points.

 

[Cameramonkey]

While open carry does likely require greater exercise of situational awareness, statistics don't seem to demonstrate that such anecdotes are in any way representative. Don't make yourself a target by being naive or acting the fool, and a criminal intent on committing some criminal act is likely never to notice you or your gun. (Many studies show the "tunnel vision" tendency of such criminals.)

But more importantly, if the bad guy doesn’t know you have it, he won’t try to steal it.

 

[JettaKnight]

OC sends a message, here in PA we have it and some are fans.
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PA? No PAGO?

To me it is just tactical peacocking.

Someone make some T-shirts of this.

 

[printcraft]

 

[wtburnette]

But more importantly, if the bad guy doesn’t know you have it, he won’t try to steal it.

Or the presence of the gun makes the criminals stay away and go for easier prey. Depending on the situation, I would bet more criminals balk at taking on someone open carrying than not. Especially if the person carrying is practicing situation awareness.

 

[chipbennett]

But more importantly, if the bad guy doesn’t know you have it, he won’t try to steal it.

You're thinking like an intelligent, common-sense, law-abiding person. That's not how criminals think. They have an objective when they set out to commit a crime, and they stay focused on that objective - further, said objective generally has nothing to do with you or your carried firearm. (Refer back to the part about not making yourself a mark by drawing attention to yourself through your actions.)

Criminals fear armed citizens even more than they fear armed LEO, according to prisoner surveys. Odds are, though, that would-be criminal isn't going to notice you or your openly carried firearm, because he's focused on whatever his mark is. And if he does see it, unless you look like an easy mark, he's more likely to reconsider his actions.

Note that concealed carry also provides a benefit here. Where carry is generally more likely, a smart criminal (an oxymoron, that) is going to factor in the likelihood that someone is carrying, and choose somewhere else to commit his crimes. (See also: "More Guns, Less Crime"). Which is why I'm very much in the "just carry" camp - whether openly or concealed.

 

[MCgrease08]

PA? No PAGO?

It's PAFOA. (Penn. Firearm Owners Association).

Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association Discussion Forum

Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Discussion Forum. Chat, Find Shooting Events, Get Help, Find local deals!

forum.pafoa.org

Being from PA I joined up there too after finding INGO thinking it would be similar. My experience was that it's a bit tougher over there. It's not nearly as well moderated and there are no language filters or anything like that.

I'm no prude and don't mind four letter words, but the tone of conversations just seemed much more disrespectful. I haven't been on in a few years.

 

[Joniki]

 

[2A_Tom]

The skunk is printing badly.

 

[nathantwilson]

You're thinking like an intelligent, common-sense, law-abiding person. That's not how criminals think. They have an objective when they set out to commit a crime, and they stay focused on that objective - further, said objective generally has nothing to do with you or your carried firearm. (Refer back to the part about not making yourself a mark by drawing attention to yourself through your actions.)

Criminals fear armed citizens even more than they fear armed LEO, according to prisoner surveys. Odds are, though, that would-be criminal isn't going to notice you or your openly carried firearm, because he's focused on whatever his mark is. And if he does see it, unless you look like an easy mark, he's more likely to reconsider his actions.

Note that concealed carry also provides a benefit here. Where carry is generally more likely, a smart criminal (an oxymoron, that) is going to factor in the likelihood that someone is carrying, and choose somewhere else to commit his crimes. (See also: "More Guns, Less Crime"). Which is why I'm very much in the "just carry" camp - whether openly or concealed.

This is similar to what I was thinking reading the article. It follows for a cool-headed criminal planning out a crime, almost like watching a bank-heist movie. But everything written changes when the criminal is a desperate drug addict. Those poor people have absolutely nothing to lose and when they need drugs are experiencing a physiological ache that you or I can't relate to. They aren't thinking about if someone has a gun or not, they don't care. They will go up to the 6'6" victim and wave a rusty razor blade demanding cash. The article was impressively thought out and written, and softened my views of OC admittedly, but this was a gap.

 

[2A_Tom]

May I ask how you know this or if it is just another hypothetical.

This is similar to what I was thinking reading the article. It follows for a cool-headed criminal planning out a crime, almost like watching a bank-heist movie. But everything written changes when the criminal is a desperate drug addict. Those poor people have absolutely nothing to lose and when they need drugs are experiencing a physiological ache that you or I can't relate to. They aren't thinking about if someone has a gun or not, they don't care. They will go up to the 6'6" victim and wave a rusty razor blade demanding cash. The article was impressively thought out and written, and softened my views of OC admittedly, but this was a gap.

Ps. I am glad that you at least read the article.

 

[nathantwilson]

May I ask how you know this or if it is just another hypothetical.

Ps. I am glad that you at least read the article.

The Connection Between Addiction and Violence

Not everyone who suffers from addiction will display violent behavior. However, research has proven that violence and addiction often go hand-in-hand.

vertavahealth.com

How Drugs & Alcohol Can Fuel Violent Behaviors

Understanding how drugs & alcohol can fuel violent behaviors is important. Learn about the relationship between drugs and violence now.

americanaddictioncenters.org

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/02673843.2001.9747882

Hypothetical, no. I've been in a Rural King in Evansville when two young adults high on Methamphetamines walked in COMPLETELY NUDE, grabbed armfuls of merchandise, and walked out. They were so desperate for cash for drugs they didn't realize/care they had no clothes on. While living in Park Forest, IL it was not uncommon to hear of homeless drug addicts (most with mental illness) attempting to mug individuals or rob gas stations for money with knives/razors. In addition to the experiences I've had, the linked articles and studies confirm the association between drug/alcohol addiction, mental illness, and reckless violent crime which was my point. You would be remiss to only account for sane, calculating criminals. You must also account for those with mental illness who do not think or plan logically.

 

[2A_Tom]

The Connection Between Addiction and Violence

Not everyone who suffers from addiction will display violent behavior. However, research has proven that violence and addiction often go hand-in-hand.

vertavahealth.com

How Drugs & Alcohol Can Fuel Violent Behaviors

Understanding how drugs & alcohol can fuel violent behaviors is important. Learn about the relationship between drugs and violence now.

americanaddictioncenters.org

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/02673843.2001.9747882

Hypothetical, no. I've been in a Rural King in Evansville when two young adults high on Methamphetamines walked in COMPLETELY NUDE, grabbed armfuls of merchandise, and walked out. They were so desperate for cash for drugs they didn't realize/care they had no clothes on. While living in Park Forest, IL it was not uncommon to hear of homeless drug addicts (most with mental illness) attempting to mug individuals or rob gas stations for money with knives/razors. In addition to the experiences I've had, the linked articles and studies confirm the association between drug/alcohol addiction, mental illness, and reckless violent crime which was my point. You would be remiss to only account for sane, calculating criminals. You must also account for those with mental illness who do not think or plan logically.

Thank you for your input.

If someone is so strung out on drugs that they don't realize they are naked, I suspect they are not looking to see who is carrying or not.

I would still wish to be considered less of a soft target and have the option to react more quickly.

 

[KLB]

This is similar to what I was thinking reading the article. It follows for a cool-headed criminal planning out a crime, almost like watching a bank-heist movie. But everything written changes when the criminal is a desperate drug addict. Those poor people have absolutely nothing to lose and when they need drugs are experiencing a physiological ache that you or I can't relate to. They aren't thinking about if someone has a gun or not, they don't care. They will go up to the 6'6" victim and wave a rusty razor blade demanding cash. The article was impressively thought out and written, and softened my views of OC admittedly, but this was a gap.

In your scenario OC would have the advantage of quicker, easier access to deploy the gun.

 

[nathantwilson]

In your scenario OC would have the advantage of quicker, easier access to deploy the gun.

Agreed.... but I was commenting on the theme of the stopping the criminal before he attacks (5 stages of violent crime). If the criminal is influenced by a substance or extreme desperation they likely aren't planning out their crime with self preservation in mind.

If the criminal is already attacking, OC clearly has a tactical advantage for most people. The possible exception being those who train by shooting something like IDPA, wear loose cover IRL, and are extremely proficient in drawing their weapon and getting a shot off in which case OC and CC would be of equal advantage.

 

[xwing]

I read the OP article. The author makes some valid points, but cavalierly disregards the very real possibility that a thug will target someone for their gun.

Either way, both OC and CC are useful forms of carry with distinct advantages and disadvantages, and we are better off as a society that both are practiced.

 

[wtburnette]

to the first, agreed to the latter.

 

[2A_Tom]

to the first, agreed to the latter.

Why face palm? You can see he is right, by all of the accounts in the media and because the FBI UCR has a separate line item for it.
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