Uvalde Texas Killing

[jamil]

Ok let’s lay it out like this, essentially a large part of my job is a lock out tag out function. my job has the potential to kill multiple people every day if I fail to follow standard practices, safety rules ect. If I grossly violate those standard practices and make up my own on the spot, over-ride safeguards and just straight up not do my job properly despite all the training/warnings/safeguards and jamil dies while working on the equipment I told him was safe is rooster in some way morally and legally responsible for jamils death?

Yes. That's just awful what you did to poor jamil. He was a very swell guy. Wordy, but swell. And clever. And let's not forget the witty sarcasm. You should be ashamed for causing his demise. the world is not better for it.

I think so, I think in that scenario and the one we are looking at standard practices were not followed in a situation where death was a likely outcome from failing to follow those standard practices.

I think a reasonable scenario might be that the guy in charge on the scene didn't have a clear picture of the reality inside. It's been reported that he thought it was a barricade situation. Maybe he's stubborn. Maybe he wouldn't listen to his officers. Some officers did go in and then took care of things eventually. I think some criminal negligence might befall the leadership once we have more facts. Hard to say if the officers who followed the orders have some criminal responsibility. I think they certainly have some civil responsibility. That school, the police? They will get sued hard.

It’s standard practice to Breech the door, this whole “barricaded suspect” angle is clearly a breach of protocol. It doesn’t matter if it’s just a patrol officer by himself with soft armor and no radio, you breech the door. That’s the standard practice because to do less puts lives in danger.

The training for an active shooter was to breech the door. For a baracaded suspect who is thought to have killed everyone already, there's no need to put police lives at risk when all the shooter can do is shoot himself. But, there's a **** ton of information from multiple sources that this was not a barricade situation. He was still an active shooter from all accounts we've heard.

So, I think when the facts come out, the leadership is in at least some deep ****. Maybe some officers too. We'll see when more facts come out.

 

[Cameramonkey]

I think there may be several reasons why teachers prop doors open.

Like doors in some parts of the school may be locked for everyone from the outside during certain times, so then maybe they can't get back in through that door. Probably as mentioned if everyone who needs access to that door has a way back in then there's not a reason to prop it open.

Another reason might be at the start of the day, a teacher has to bring in a lot of teaching resources for class, and has to make several trips to the parking lot, each time with his or her hands full, there's not a free hand to open the door, so it gets propped open.

Technology can fix both problems, but there's a pretty stiff cost.

And its an even stiffer cost to NOT do it.

 

[Cameramonkey]

I think it was posted in this thread earlier, in the training material that they took it expressly said that an in an active shooter situation you go in and stop the shooter. It also said that if you can't do that you should look for a different career.

I dont think I could do it unless one of my family members was in there.

But Im not the one wearing a badge.

 

[rooster]

And its an even stiffer cost to NOT do it.

Once knew a man who said

“you can’t put a price on safety………...as long as someone else’s paying for it”

 

[Doug]

Except that they had just had a school shooter exercise with the Uvalde school police a couple of months before... So I'm thinking they had their plans. They just didn't follow them.

As I understand it, the officer who assumed command at the scene did NOT attend the training.
I suspect "deer in the headlights" because he never accepted that a school shooting could happen in his town.

 

[wcd]

I think there may be several reasons why teachers prop doors open.

…

Sadly one of those reasons is the teacher being lazy.

 

[rooster]

As I understand it, the officer who assumed command at the scene did NOT attend the training.
I suspect "deer in the headlights" because he never accepted that a school shooting could happen in his town.

If he didn’t attend the training he should have stood down and let whomever play commander at the training do when it was game time.

 

[wcd]

If he didn’t attend the training he should have stood down and let whomever play commander at the training do when it was game time.

Never thought I would agree with the Rooster, but he is spot on. Was the OIC incredulous? With out being there and knowing all the facts it’s hard to play armchair quarterback. But the facts appear to be that 911 calls were placed while the atrocities were being committed.
Not that it matters I am not convinced that there was no knowledge of the sos calls conveyed to the command center. Regardless that door should have been breached and the pos should have encountered overwhelming force.

Sad reality there were lots,of fails which cost Gods gifts their lives and shattered the lives of many.

 

[Doug]

Sadly, the current argument is that since staff props doors open and police stand around for an hour instead of confronting the shooter, there is no point in hardening the schools or putting police in the schools. Therefore, the only thing to do is ban some guns.

 

[actaeon277]

Trainings/Simulations are only as good as the organization running them.

 

[thompal]

The training for an active shooter was to breech the door. For a baracaded suspect who is thought to have killed everyone already, there's no need to put police lives at risk when all the shooter can do is shoot himself. But, there's a **** ton of information from multiple sources that this was not a barricade situation. He was still an active shooter from all accounts we've heard.

But even if he incorrectly assumed that every single student had already been shot, what are the odds that many may have survived with timely medical treatment? I'm not going to give him a pass for it, even if he completely ignored the multiple 911 calls coming from inside.

 

[thompal]

I dont think I could do it unless one of my family members was in there.

But Im not the one wearing a badge.

And now that we know that those cops wouldn't do it either, I certainly hope ALL of them find different careers. Starbucks may be a better fit for them.

 

[thompal]

As I understand it, the officer who assumed command at the scene did NOT attend the training.
I suspect "deer in the headlights" because he never accepted that a school shooting could happen in his town.

But, he was the CHIEF! If the chief can't be bothered to attend the training so he knows what is required, how can he be expected to head a department?

 

[churchmouse]

I think there may be several reasons why teachers prop doors open.

Like doors in some parts of the school may be locked for everyone from the outside during certain times, so then maybe they can't get back in through that door. Probably as mentioned if everyone who needs access to that door has a way back in then there's not a reason to prop it open.

Another reason might be at the start of the day, a teacher has to bring in a lot of teaching resources for class, and has to make several trips to the parking lot, each time with his or her hands full, there's not a free hand to open the door, so it gets propped open.

Technology can fix both problems, but there's a pretty stiff cost.

Dare I say it. How stiff. What do we measure these costs with.
I know your meaning here and not a knock on you but when we send billions off shore, blow millions on idiotic meaningless ventures of all sorts what is the actual price we put on the lives of those “Priceless babies”.
Reading this thread and realizing that once again our system has flat failed across the board I look at the terrorists and it’s hard to hold back the tears. The world they will live in scares the absolute **** out of me.

 

[Cameramonkey]

But, he was the CHIEF! If the chief can't be bothered to attend the training so he knows what is required, how can he be expected to head a department?

Or carry a radio. I believe I heard he doesn’t even carry a radio, so he was WAAAAAYYYYY outside the loop while failing hard at leadership.

 

[Doug]

But, he was the CHIEF! If the chief can't be bothered to attend the training so he knows what is required, how can he be expected to head a department?

It's called the Peter Principle; everyone is promoted to their level of incompetency. It also explains why he didn't have a radio.

 

[dsol]

Got a question that may have been asked earlier in this discussion but haven't seen on the news. If the locked classroom door kept the police at bay until they found someone with a key, why didn't it keep the punk out of the classroom?

It seems to my simple mind, if a lock down was issued through an alarm system when the punk started shooting outside, even if he gained entry through the unlocked side door, he shouldn't have been able to waltz into a classroom.

 

[qwerty]

As with most situations, there is a lot of fluidity, rumors, and conjecture, as this thread is a great example. There is also difficulty, especially with social media, in determining what is accurate. DPS, in their attempt to get ahead of the rumors and trying to be transparent, is getting ahead of themself and falling on their face repeatedly. Once the facts are determined, then you come forward with the timeline, but to keep changing it is foolish and lends yourself to speculation.

That being said, things usually get gummed up when the Chief or Administration gets involved. Not just Law Enforcement, but most businesses seem to fall victim to this. Chiefs are appointed, generally by a board or commission that has no experience, training, or any background that would justify them being on that board. Even in the Northwest Region, Councils are appointing "experienced" individuals that are Illinois refugees that escaped the bad policies, policing, and practices that created the wasteland that they are fleeing, only to bring the same bad policies, policing, and practices. I think it is St. John, where every member of the Police Commission is from an agency in Illinois.

There are a huge amount of questions here that still need to be answered, but my guess is like in Las Vegas, there will be no answers. I was a bit shocked to see that Federal Agencies were on the scene in an hour. I understand there are federal offices close by, but there is still coordination before deploying. I can be in Chicago in under 45 minutes, and FBI offices are literally a stones-throw away, but even in a supposed "Active Shooter Incident" within the past year at a local school, the letter agencies were not on scene until hour 3, and the situation was pretty much resolved by then and they were in the late stages of clearing the remaining classrooms.

How does a part-time employee at a Wendys get the funds to purchase that quantity of firearms and ammo? How does a border patrol agent, in plain clothes, armed with a shotgun, with no visible identification, gain entry into a school during an active shooting to retrieve his wife and daughter who were supposedly "locked down" like those in the classroom that were killed? Why was the classroom unlocked to begin with? It apparently had a lock, and the training (they just had) is to always keep the classroom locked except during transition periods. The Chief not carrying a radio was something that a State Senator said he was told..... There is no other reporting or confirmation that it occurred. Could it be true, yes; but it is just Chinese telephone right now.

As I said earlier, there are a lot of failures that should be addressed if they are accurate, but the solution proposed by Government will only punish us. It was their failures that caused this, from approving the purchase, to failing to provide proper school security, the individuals are paid by tax dollars and will not be held accountable.

 

[Ingomike]

Got a question that may have been asked earlier in this discussion but haven't seen on the news. If the locked classroom door kept the police at bay until they found someone with a key, why didn't it keep the punk out of the classroom?

It seems to my simple mind, if a lock down was issued through an alarm system when the punk started shooting outside, even if he gained entry through the unlocked side door, he shouldn't have been able to waltz into a classroom.

I read the teacher locked the classroom door to the hall but failed to lock the door to the adjoining empty classroom and the perp got in that way.

 

[Cameramonkey]

How does a part-time employee at a Wendys get the funds to purchase that quantity of firearms and ammo?

Thats easy. If you are earning money, but have no serious expenses, you can accumulate cash fairly quickly. So in his case if he's pulling down a couple hundred a week, but doesnt have to pay rent, buy food, pay for a car, etc. it wont take him long to save up.

And if he was able to get a credit card, (appied for or stole one) There's a couple grand at his fingertips right there. Money he wouldnt care about paying back so nothing preventing him from using that.

And odds are his grandparents dont have their smartphones linked to their cards, so they wouldnt know immediately when the charges were made. It would take up to a month if he "borrowed" the card, bought the rifles, then put the card back.