Uvalde Texas Killing

[thompal]

Both 911 and dispatch would have all the calls and radio traffic recorded.

Oh, I'm sure those have long been lost through equipment failures or other unavoidable technical problems.

 

[BigRed]

Any word on where the school officer was at the time?

 

[jamil]

Simple fact of the matter is… The federal government approved him for purchase. It’s on them.

Yes, it's on the federal government. But the problem with that is, it's easy to then call for expanding background checks, which I think casts a wider blanket over people who would ultimately not pose a societal problem with firearm ownership. I think the feds failure is a systemic failure of the whole idea of background checks. They're not perfect, nor can they be, and the tend to disable people who aren't a threat from exercising a right.

 

[jamil]

First guy to meet the shooter was a funeral home employee. Ramos tried to shoot him and he ran tripping. Called his wife and told her to bring his gun.

If only he had been carrying……

Once his wife got there he was armed but cops were on scene

“I told him that he’s already inside the school,” Briseno said. He said the officer told him to stay back and shut up.

Uvalde funeral attendant who encountered gunman says he tried to go after shooter, was held back

Cody Briseno said he has helped bury five children who died on that day, including a cousin.

www.nbcnews.com

Every officer who ordered people to stand down or refused to disobey those unlawful orders needs to be charged as an accessory to murder

I mean, I agree with the rest. If only the funeral home employee had been armed. But. Was that an unlawful order? A foolish order, yes. Was it unlawful? And were the other officers who were ordered to stand down and then complied, really breaking any law? I think the person who ordered officers to stand down deserves to face consequences. I don't know that it amounts to breaking the law.

 

[jamil]

From the Texas penal code

d) A person acts with criminal negligence, or is criminally negligent, with respect to circumstances surrounding his conduct or the result of his conduct when he ought to be aware of a substantial and unjustifiable risk that the circumstances exist or the result will occur. The risk must be of such a nature and degree that the failure to perceive it constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that an ordinary person would exercise under all the circumstances as viewed from the actor's standpoint.



Since the ordinary person was attempting to rush in while officers stood by I see no reason why the conduct of those on scene doesn’t meet the definition of criminally negligent homicide according to Texas penal code.

I think you're interpreting things to meet criteria it may not meet, maybe because of anger. And I can certainly see being angry. I am. I think the police failed its community, and there should be consequences for that.

Would officers have the legal authority to prevent ordinary citizens from going into the school armed in any circumstances? Can you not think of a scenario where that should be the case?

 

[rooster]

I think you're interpreting things to meet criteria it may not meet, maybe because of anger. And I can certainly see being angry. I am. I think the police failed its community, and there should be consequences for that.

Would officers have the legal authority to prevent ordinary citizens from going into the school armed in any circumstances? Can you not think of a scenario where that should be the case?

From the Texas penal code I posted upthread

“The risk must be of such a nature and degree that the failure to perceive it constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that an ordinary person would exercise under all the circumstances as viewed from the actor's standpoint”

 

[jamil]

From the Texas penal code I posted upthread

“The risk must be of such a nature and degree that the failure to perceive it constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of care that an ordinary person would exercise under all the circumstances as viewed from the actor's standpoint”

Yes, I did read that. I can think of some scenarios where that would be the case. However we don't really know all the things that everyone knew and why the decisions made were made. That is what determines if this meets the definition.

 

[rooster]

So now we are getting reports he was known to the fbi and threats had been reported.

I’m shocked I tell you, shocked

 

[BigRed]

So now we are getting reports he was known to the fbi and threats had been reported.

I’m shocked I tell you, shocked

I'm extra shocked.... see post 50 of the original thread.

Uvalde Texas Killing

It would help teach your kids steadfast morals instead of indoctrination into being *** ******* lgbtxtz idiots. Several generations without steadfast morals and you get this crap. If you are too stupid, one steadfast moral is thou shall not kill. Another is to treat others as you wish to be...

www.indianagunowners.com

I recall there was some indication this thug was in contact with the fbi prior to his murderous action.

Patsies seem plentiful.

 

[dusty88]

True.
In their case, the "adults" in the group (school employees) were.
The school employee propped the door open.

I keep reading the "moron" comments about this person. I think emergency behavior is largely trained.

It's easy to look at something in hindsight and call someone stupid. In the heat of the moment, people aren't good at making new plans they never thought about before. If their actual training had emphasized the importance of door-locking habits, perhaps the person instinctively would have locked the door.

Equipment also matters. All of our external household doors have keypads. Before we got keypads it was way too tempting to leave doors unlocked because we HAD negative experiences with getting locked out multiple times. Now, even if we aren't sure when someone else might want to come in, we aren't worried about locking them out. We have confidence they can get back in with their code. Surely someone in security planning has discovered the same thing for workplaces? Give people electronic codes and they'll have better door-locking habits?

 

[Cameramonkey]

fobs and access cards are even better. Adds literally 1 second to the entry of a locked door.

But its not cheap. It can cost a couple grand per door, installed.

 

[BigRed]

I keep reading the "moron" comments about this person. I think emergency behavior is largely trained.

It's easy to look at something in hindsight and call someone stupid. In the heat of the moment, people aren't good at making new plans they never thought about before. If their actual training had emphasized the importance of door-locking habits, perhaps the person instinctively would have locked the door.

Equipment also matters. All of our external household doors have keypads. Before we got keypads it was way too tempting to leave doors unlocked because we HAD negative experiences with getting locked out multiple times. Now, even if we aren't sure when someone else might want to come in, we aren't worried about locking them out. We have confidence they can get back in with their code. Surely someone in security planning has discovered the same thing for workplaces? Give people electronic codes and they'll have better door-locking habits?

I seem to recall there was an "active shooter training session" just a couple of weeks prior.

Perhaps she should have trained better.

I would be willing to bet she had.

 

[dusty88]

fobs and access cards are even better. Adds literally 1 second to the entry of a locked door.

thank you and my apologies. I had only read about halfway through the thread when I made my comment. I later saw that those of you with experience had addressed the subject

 

[Cameramonkey]

thank you and my apologies. I had only read about halfway through the thread when I made my comment. I later saw that those of you with experience had addressed the subject

No worries. And you are spot on. If everyone who should be able to enter can easily, you dont have propping issues. (at least not regularly)

 

[jwamplerusa]

If what that young mother is saying turns out to be true, and bits of video suggest very well it might be, then the appropriate action is to immediately eliminate all gun-free zones.

This is looking like it is rapidly devolving to something that is beyond disgusting. I'm going to have a very difficult time digesting this and coming out the other side writing and speaking about it while still sounding like a rational person.

 

[DadSmith]

So 10+ officers were standing outside listening to that scumbag killing all those babies, and did nothing for close to an hour?
This sounds surreal if it's true.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

It's easy to look at something in hindsight and call someone stupid. In the heat of the moment, people aren't good at making new plans they never thought about before.

Except that they had just had a school shooter exercise with the Uvalde school police a couple of months before... So I'm thinking they had their plans. They just didn't follow them.

 

[jamil]

No worries. And you are spot on. If everyone who should be able to enter can easily, you dont have propping issues. (at least not regularly)

I think there may be several reasons why teachers prop doors open.

Like doors in some parts of the school may be locked for everyone from the outside during certain times, so then maybe they can't get back in through that door. Probably as mentioned if everyone who needs access to that door has a way back in then there's not a reason to prop it open.

Another reason might be at the start of the day, a teacher has to bring in a lot of teaching resources for class, and has to make several trips to the parking lot, each time with his or her hands full, there's not a free hand to open the door, so it gets propped open.

Technology can fix both problems, but there's a pretty stiff cost.

 

[jamil]

Except that they had just had a school shooter exercise with the Uvalde school police a couple of months before... So I'm thinking they had their plans. They just didn't follow them.

I think it was posted in this thread earlier, in the training material that they took it expressly said that an in an active shooter situation you go in and stop the shooter. It also said that if you can't do that you should look for a different career.

 

[rooster]

I think you're interpreting things to meet criteria it may not meet, maybe because of anger. And I can certainly see being angry. I am. I think the police failed its community, and there should be consequences for that.

Would officers have the legal authority to prevent ordinary citizens from going into the school armed in any circumstances? Can you not think of a scenario where that should be the case?

Ok let’s lay it out like this, essentially a large part of my job is a lock out tag out function. my job has the potential to kill multiple people every day if I fail to follow standard practices, safety rules ect. If I grossly violate those standard practices and make up my own on the spot, over-ride safeguards and just straight up not do my job properly despite all the training/warnings/safeguards and jamil dies while working on the equipment I told him was safe is rooster in some way morally and legally responsible for jamils death?

I think so, I think in that scenario and the one we are looking at standard practices were not followed in a situation where death was a likely outcome from failing to follow those standard practices.

It’s standard practice to Breech the door, this whole “barricaded suspect” angle is clearly a breach of protocol. It doesn’t matter if it’s just a patrol officer by himself with soft armor and no radio, you breech the door. That’s the standard practice because to do less puts lives in danger.