Russia vs. Ukraine Part 2

[bobzilla]

So OSCE is a Russian propaganda wing now?

Look man, I don't think Russia/Putin is in any way in the right in their invasion of Ukraine, and I think the conclusion of the linked article above can be refuted on moral and logical grounds, since Russian meddling was also largely to blame for the ongoing conflict in Ukraine that was leading to civilian areas being targeted by both sides. But the fact remains that the Ukrainian government and military had plenty of civilian blood on their hands before Russia launched their invasion, and dismissing this a "Russian propaganda", or refusing to come to terms with the reality that it's a complicated situation in which Ukraine and NATO are not the spotless, innocent, and upright paragons of justice that they're made out to be in American media, only weakens your argument.

It boils down to this: Did Russia have the right and moral high ground to invade Ukraine? Yes or no. If yes, then the world should step back and move along. If no, they need their pee pee smacked so hard it becomes an inny from the entire world.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

It boils down to this: Did Russia have the right and moral high ground to invade Ukraine? Yes or no. If yes, then the world should step back and move along. If no, they need their pee pee smacked so hard it becomes an inny from the entire world.

I'm not advocating in favor of Russia. I'm merely pointing out that those who choose to participate in the debate solely by calling any facts presented that might cast Ukraine in an unfavorable light "Russian propaganda" are not likely to win rational people over to their side.

 

[1DOWN4UP]

"You people need to SHUT UP. I know people who know people.
That ,I mean those pipelines just so happen to blow up on their own. How exactly is a rainbow made? How exactly does the sunset? How does the posi-traction on a Plymouth work?.......
It just does !"

"IT JUST DOES!"

 

[nra4ever]

nukes soon…..

and why in the world would it make sense to admit we blew up the pipe lines.

 

[actaeon277]

As I said before, we should remind him of our policy on WMDs.
The use of any WMD results in the full use of our WMDs in overwhelming force.
Launch 1 or 1,000 you get to receive all of ours.
Any WMD, meaning Nuke, Biological, Chemical.
And since we have 'officially' renounced Bio and Chem, that means only one thing.


Course, coming from OUR 'leaders', won't mean much.

MAD, Mutual Assured Destruction, only works when others believe you have the ability, AND the fortitude to carry through.

 

[Libertarian01]

The Germans were selling cheap Russian NG downstream to most if not all of the EU and some contiguous players. Bringing Germany down several pegs would only cut their own throats on heating and industrial power. That canard fails the cui bono test as well, and any non-state actor (and most EU states) would lack the technical/technological capabilities to do the deed

The United States IS the number one suspect, and I notice you haven't disputed the purported methodology but only aver that our involvement can't be 'proven'

The crux of my issue is that this author is making claims of absolute fact based upon, allegedly, ONE (1) informant, with ZERO (0) corroboration!

When Deep Throat broke the Watergate scandal to Woodward & Bernstein, he (the informant) offered corroborating information. The reporters were able to track and verify additional information. They found a $25k check to one of the conspirators. They eventually got access to the White House tapes. There was, in a word, verification of the premise.

This story doesn't do that.

Let's say I came to you, or someone you love, claim that I know your (or their) spouse is cheating on you. I know "a guy" that told me so. I have no evidence, no photos, no credit card receipts, no hotel clerk swearing they were both at the same hotel room at the same time. Nothing, other than one (1) informants word, and I won't tell you who they are.

I don't think you would appreciate that, nor would anyone else.

This is a reporter making a public claim of government action with no proof, other than "trust me, I know a guy..."

You and I and anyone else posting on these boards can shoot the breeze and make any speculations we want to. But we aren't out there making claims of absolute facts with nothing to base it on.

Christine Blasey Ford made a rape claim against now Justice Kavanaugh. She also offered no evidence, no verification, no method of checking up on her story. Was she telling the truth? Possibly, yes. Did I believe her? No, I did not. But in her case I was able to observe her and found her, in my opinion, less than credible. That doesn't make me right, but it does allow me and all of us to form a better understanding of the situation.

In this story none of us can judge the informant as we have never met him or her. That makes it all the more important for a journalist to provide some compelling additional, verifiable evidence of what he is claiming before putting pen to paper.

Regards,

Doug

 

[smokingman]

112 Billion so far.

Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-FL) filed a resolution on Thursday to end all US aid to Ukraine for war with Russia, while at the same time seeking a peace settlement between the two nations.

Co-sponsored by 10 House members, the "Ukraine Fatigue Resolution," cites the enormous US support to Ukraine, noting that America is the "top contributor of military aid to Ukraine compared to its counterparts," having "appropriated more than $110,000,000,000 of military, financial, and humanitarian aid to Ukraine."

The resolution adds that "on February 3, 2023, the Department of Defense announced $2,000,000,000 in additional security assistance for Ukraine."

Zerohedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

 

[DragonGunner]

As I said before, we should remind him of our policy on WMDs.
The use of any WMD results in the full use of our WMDs in overwhelming force.
Launch 1 or 1,000 you get to receive all of ours.
Any WMD, meaning Nuke, Biological, Chemical.
And since we have 'officially' renounced Bio and Chem, that means only one thing.


Course, coming from OUR 'leaders', won't mean much.

MAD, Mutual Assured Destruction, only works when others believe you have the ability, AND the fortitude to carry through.

If Biden kicks off and Kamala takes over we will watch Putin use nukes or other WMD to finish Ukraine. Kamala has to give an order and I fully expect she won’t make a decision, just a cackle.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

If Biden kicks off and Kamala takes over we will watch Putin use nukes or other WMD to finish Ukraine. Kamala has to give an order and I fully expect she won’t make a decision, just a cackle.

If Putin's criterion for using nukes was waiting for a doddering, ineffective, and indecisive buffoon to take over the USA, then Ukraine would be a nuclear wasteland by now...

 

[erasure]

Any WMD, meaning Nuke, Biological, Chemical.

What if the Ukrainians escalate to that point?

Video: Ukraine Loads Phosgene Gas onto Drones, Deploys Chemical Weapons Against Russian Soldiers - THE INTEL DROP

Video: Ukraine Loads Phosgene Gas onto Drones, Deploys Chemical Weapons Against Russian Soldiers

www.theinteldrop.org

Russia probing alleged Ukrainian use of chemical weapons

The Investigative Committee said the Donetsk People's Republic had reported the use of chemical weapons by Ukrainian drones near the two locations.

www.jpost.com

Russia demands OSCE evaluate Ukraine’s use of chemical weapons, diplomat says

According to head of the Russian delegation to the Vienna talks on military security and arms control Konstantin Gavrilov, the Russian Investigative Committee is working to establish all the circumstances of these incidents

tass.com

https://www.donbass-insider.com/2023/02/09/ukraine-openly-uses-chemical-weapons-against-russian-soldiers-and-the-opcw-remains-silent/

I know, I know, it's only propaganda from the evil Russians!
but if it turns out to be true...what then?

 

[Leadeye]

Nukes change everything, even used in a limited theater. Lets assume a one time small exchange in that part of the world and what happens afterward.

Everything stops for a while, as nobody will know if they are going to get vaporized in the next half hour. Electronic communication stops as it's overwhelmed, stock markets stop, world panic begins immediately. What you have now is all you have to work with.

It will take quite a while to recover from that even if you aren't in the area near the exchange.

 

[BigRed]

112 Billion so far.

Rep. Matt Gaetz (R-FL) filed a resolution on Thursday to end all US aid to Ukraine for war with Russia, while at the same time seeking a peace settlement between the two nations.

Co-sponsored by 10 House members, the "Ukraine Fatigue Resolution," cites the enormous US support to Ukraine, noting that America is the "top contributor of military aid to Ukraine compared to its counterparts," having "appropriated more than $110,000,000,000 of military, financial, and humanitarian aid to Ukraine."

The resolution adds that "on February 3, 2023, the Department of Defense announced $2,000,000,000 in additional security assistance for Ukraine."

Zerohedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

It's about $112,000,000,000 too much.

 

[gassprint1]

The crux of my issue is that this author is making claims of absolute fact based upon, allegedly, ONE (1) informant, with ZERO (0) corroboration!

When Deep Throat broke the Watergate scandal to Woodward & Bernstein, he (the informant) offered corroborating information. The reporters were able to track and verify additional information. They found a $25k check to one of the conspirators. They eventually got access to the White House tapes. There was, in a word, verification of the premise.

This story doesn't do that.

Let's say I came to you, or someone you love, claim that I know your (or their) spouse is cheating on you. I know "a guy" that told me so. I have no evidence, no photos, no credit card receipts, no hotel clerk swearing they were both at the same hotel room at the same time. Nothing, other than one (1) informants word, and I won't tell you who they are.

I don't think you would appreciate that, nor would anyone else.

This is a reporter making a public claim of government action with no proof, other than "trust me, I know a guy..."

You and I and anyone else posting on these boards can shoot the breeze and make any speculations we want to. But we aren't out there making claims of absolute facts with nothing to base it on.

Christine Blasey Ford made a rape claim against now Justice Kavanaugh. She also offered no evidence, no verification, no method of checking up on her story. Was she telling the truth? Possibly, yes. Did I believe her? No, I did not. But in her case I was able to observe her and found her, in my opinion, less than credible. That doesn't make me right, but it does allow me and all of us to form a better understanding of the situation.

In this story none of us can judge the informant as we have never met him or her. That makes it all the more important for a journalist to provide some compelling additional, verifiable evidence of what he is claiming before putting pen to paper.

Regards,

Doug

I feel this same point for the so called china spy baloons...show me the proof and I'm still not buying china said it was theirs.

 

[BugI02]

The crux of my issue is that this author is making claims of absolute fact based upon, allegedly, ONE (1) informant, with ZERO (0) corroboration!

When Deep Throat broke the Watergate scandal to Woodward & Bernstein, he (the informant) offered corroborating information. The reporters were able to track and verify additional information. They found a $25k check to one of the conspirators. They eventually got access to the White House tapes. There was, in a word, verification of the premise.

This story doesn't do that.

Let's say I came to you, or someone you love, claim that I know your (or their) spouse is cheating on you. I know "a guy" that told me so. I have no evidence, no photos, no credit card receipts, no hotel clerk swearing they were both at the same hotel room at the same time. Nothing, other than one (1) informants word, and I won't tell you who they are.

I don't think you would appreciate that, nor would anyone else.

This is a reporter making a public claim of government action with no proof, other than "trust me, I know a guy..."

You and I and anyone else posting on these boards can shoot the breeze and make any speculations we want to. But we aren't out there making claims of absolute facts with nothing to base it on.

Christine Blasey Ford made a rape claim against now Justice Kavanaugh. She also offered no evidence, no verification, no method of checking up on her story. Was she telling the truth? Possibly, yes. Did I believe her? No, I did not. But in her case I was able to observe her and found her, in my opinion, less than credible. That doesn't make me right, but it does allow me and all of us to form a better understanding of the situation.

In this story none of us can judge the informant as we have never met him or her. That makes it all the more important for a journalist to provide some compelling additional, verifiable evidence of what he is claiming before putting pen to paper.

Regards,

Doug

William of Occam shaves with cui bono as his blade

 

[BugI02]

What if the Ukrainians escalate to that point?

Video: Ukraine Loads Phosgene Gas onto Drones, Deploys Chemical Weapons Against Russian Soldiers - THE INTEL DROP

Video: Ukraine Loads Phosgene Gas onto Drones, Deploys Chemical Weapons Against Russian Soldiers

www.theinteldrop.org

Russia probing alleged Ukrainian use of chemical weapons

The Investigative Committee said the Donetsk People's Republic had reported the use of chemical weapons by Ukrainian drones near the two locations.

www.jpost.com

Russia demands OSCE evaluate Ukraine’s use of chemical weapons, diplomat says

According to head of the Russian delegation to the Vienna talks on military security and arms control Konstantin Gavrilov, the Russian Investigative Committee is working to establish all the circumstances of these incidents

tass.com

https://www.donbass-insider.com/2023/02/09/ukraine-openly-uses-chemical-weapons-against-russian-soldiers-and-the-opcw-remains-silent/

I know, I know, it's only propaganda from the evil Russians!
but if it turns out to be true...what then?

“I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.” ― Albert Einstein

 

[Libertarian01]

William of Occam shaves with cui bono as his blade

William of Occam shaving with cui bono has condemned many an innocent to prison and death needlessly.

Our want of quick and easy leads down lazy paths of disaster.

I'll wait for corroboration and supporting facts before coming to a final decision.

Regards,

Doug

 

[indyartisan]

It's about $112,000,000,000 too much.

That’s the ******* truth.

 

[indyjs]

Complications of the Ukraine War

There are reasons why the U.S. might want to project power into the Black Sea region. But we must not ignore that the politics of the region are extraordinarily complex and that the Ukraine conflict is full of paradoxes and optical illusions. And unless we learn to respect the complexity of the...

imprimis.hillsdale.edu

 

[nra4ever]

This can’t be good.

 

[asevans]

I still see people here backing and defending a fraudulently elected President of the US. Still believing a fake news media who stirs up lies and fear.
We are truly doomed.