Pistol Optics, or NOT?

[gregkl]

May I please share some thoughts on night sights. I believe that they are mostly unnecessary. We must positively identify anything we are shooting at. If there is enough light for that, then there is generally enough to see the sights. I do recomend high visibilty paint, etc. But for the sights to provide their own light source is not needed. Honestly, the most I have used the sights for is to locate the pistol on the night stand. And just FYI, I am a full time LEO. 400+ member department, 3rd shift with 22 years on and on the tactical team. I also serve in the Infantry.
The biggest reason to invest in night sights is durability. They are just made stronger and last longer than alot of the non tritium sights.
The fibre optic ones are okay, but I am amazed at how many times I have had students' guns have the fibre optic core fall out. Just my humble opinion.

I agree.

 

[gregkl]

I wonder how many thousands of presentations it will take me to get competant with the RDS??? I am old and the learning curve is steep for me.

Same here but I just need more consistent practice.

 

[88E30M50]

May I please share some thoughts on night sights. I believe that they are mostly unnecessary. We must positively identify anything we are shooting at. If there is enough light for that, then there is generally enough to see the sights. I do recomend high visibilty paint, etc. But for the sights to provide their own light source is not needed. Honestly, the most I have used the sights for is to locate the pistol on the night stand. And just FYI, I am a full time LEO. 400+ member department, 3rd shift with 22 years on and on the tactical team. I also serve in the Infantry.
The biggest reason to invest in night sights is durability. They are just made stronger and last longer than alot of the non tritium sights.
The fibre optic ones are okay, but I am amazed at how many times I have had students' guns have the fibre optic core fall out. Just my humble opinion.

I disagree. Night sights have more utility than just for aiming. When I look at my nightstand in a dark room, night sights let me see exactly where the pistol is and how it is oriented. Without night sights, I just am guessing where the pistol is.

I totally agree about using them to aim in the dark though. I could never pull the trigger on a shadow that I had not positively identified

 

[gregkl]

I disagree. Night sights have more utility than just for aiming. When I look at my nightstand in a dark room, night sights let me see exactly where the pistol is and how it is oriented. Without night sights, I just am guessing where the pistol is.

I totally agree about using them to aim in the dark though. I could never pull the trigger on a shadow that I had not positively identified

Tim, I thought he said that they are good for locating your gun on a nightstand. I like them for that purpose.

 

[gregr]

May I please share some thoughts on night sights. I believe that they are mostly unnecessary. We must positively identify anything we are shooting at. If there is enough light for that, then there is generally enough to see the sights. I do recomend high visibilty paint, etc. But for the sights to provide their own light source is not needed. Honestly, the most I have used the sights for is to locate the pistol on the night stand. And just FYI, I am a full time LEO. 400+ member department, 3rd shift with 22 years on and on the tactical team. I also serve in the Infantry.
The biggest reason to invest in night sights is durability. They are just made stronger and last longer than alot of the non tritium sights.
The fibre optic ones are okay, but I am amazed at how many times I have had students' guns have the fibre optic core fall out. Just my humble opinion.

I have night sights on all my Glocks, with the exception of my little Glock 42. I really like the night sights, and insist on them. If I were to have to engage someone in the house in the dark. I want to be able to acquire good sight alignment, even if not a great sight picture.

 

[Claymore1702]

I love and appreciate all the discussion, thoughts and points. I encourage everyone to really do A LOT of low light training. Different ambient lighting conditions, flash lights (mounted and not mounted), and honestly analyze what your eyes are really focusing on and using. You all are the best.

 

[DadSmith]

May I please share some thoughts on night sights. I believe that they are mostly unnecessary. We must positively identify anything we are shooting at. If there is enough light for that, then there is generally enough to see the sights. I do recomend high visibilty paint, etc. But for the sights to provide their own light source is not needed. Honestly, the most I have used the sights for is to locate the pistol on the night stand. And just FYI, I am a full time LEO. 400+ member department, 3rd shift with 22 years on and on the tactical team. I also serve in the Infantry.
The biggest reason to invest in night sights is durability. They are just made stronger and last longer than alot of the non tritium sights.
The fibre optic ones are okay, but I am amazed at how many times I have had students' guns have the fibre optic core fall out. Just my humble opinion.

Night sights are not only for pitch black shooting. It's for low light shooting.
For instance in your home you may have night lights around the home to aid walking around at night, or windows that allow street light in, or walking around at night with low light from street lights while shopping etc.
In other words you can identify a bad guy with a flashlight and or with the low light conditions.
If you are using and shooting from cover in low light or another 1000+ possibilities your white dot or fiber optic will be dark without a flashlight.
A tritium sight you can easily find, and put on target in that low light situation.
What happens if you drop your light, or it malfunctions, or it gets damaged and you have no way of finding your front sight or rear sight in low light or no light situations?

Edit:
I personally do not need the rear sight to have anything within 15yds. I've learned to use the front sight only in situations I need speed and less precision. 15yds + shots I then use the rear sight to make sure I'm on target.
I'm going to buy a circle dot sight since It helps me see the sight without Starburst from my astigmatism. I'm going to see how fast, and how far back I can hit by just putting the circle on target and firing.

I hope this post is somewhat coherent.

 

[Route 45]

The fact that many PD’s are adopting rds is testament enough. This is the future no doubt in my mind.
Don’t sell yourself out and go for the cheapest dot you can get as you are just setting yourself up for failure. No disrespect to PA offerings as plenty of good offerings at a lower price point that gets people engaged.
If you are a new shooter maybe skip the 10,000 rounds plus thru irons and go straight to a rds. I know it’s sacrilege to some but it save that $5k in ammo and spend it on getting proficient with a reputable rds. The list of reputable rds is growing daily. You have to unlearn iron sight methodology. Some revered trainers recommend not having irons on their rds training guns. IE don’t line up your irons and then find the dot. If you have no irons you are forced to find the dot.
The gun industry has recognized the importance of rds and you can get common flavors in MOS and also direct attachment versions (no adapter plate which adds minimal height to your rds sight picture).
Younger eyes may rule the irons and older shooters will see the benefit of the rds. Imagine having young eyes and going straight to the rds and getting those same 10,000 plus rounds of reps.

Nah.

 

[Dean C.]

Nah.

Wilson Combat on Instagram: "Ken Hackathorn takes a detailed look at Red Dot sights on self-defense handguns. See the full video on the Wilson Combat YouTube Channel."

Wilson Combat shared a post on Instagram: "Ken Hackathorn takes a detailed look at Red Dot sights on self-defense handguns. See the full video on the Wilson Combat YouTube Channel.". Follow their account to see 2472 posts.

www.instagram.com

The comments section is amazing, Ken and Bill both need to go back to their nursing homes. Even Aaron Cowan offered to give Ken a free class

 

[Route 45]

The comments section is amazing, Ken and Bill both need to go back to their nursing homes. Even Aaron Cowan offered to give Ken a free class

What is he wrong about?

 

[Gabriel]

What is he wrong about?

His statement about tourniquets. I actually never carried one with the thought of saving someone with a bullet wound, but more for car crashes or other various times one's all important arteries have opened up and the elixir of life is spewing forth.

Beyond that, having only about 700 rounds through my handgun red dot, I agree with everything else he said. Having that few rounds through my handgun, I've tried to explain to my PD that I don't think they are for everyone and they should be optional if we go to them. I don't think many of our officers would benefit from them as they don't shoot outside of work... and only shoot about twenty minutes a month at work. In my opinion it should take at least a several day class to introduce them to officers and then have them issued, but the logistics of doing that (and the money along with most officers not wanting to bother) isn't in the cards.

 

[Dean C.]

What is he wrong about?

His entire argument is totally irrelevant , shooting is a perishable skill and people who are never going to train / practice will always suck. Red dots are not something to do in half measures , either all your guns have them or none do IMHO.

It took me 3 months of dry fire and regular range visits to get good with a dot, but the advantages they give at 10+ yards is so dramatic especially with micro guns like P365's that the cost is worth it to me personally.

Yes they are expensive and not a huge advantage in a sub 5 yard gunfight , but last time I checked gunfights are Open Class you shoot what you brought. The white paper section over hit probability with a red dot should be eye opening to most.

Every time red dots are brought up the argument always boils down to the lowest common denominator shooter and I cannot stand it. I would think the folks on INGO would be more keen on accuracy at distance especially after the Greenwood Mall...

 

[FNparabellum]

Are YOU buying Optics-ready pistols now?

I'm in the market for a Smith & Wesson M&P 2.0 pistol, or I should say I will be when/if prices come down and supply normalizes.

I like the original 2.0 configuration. No-snag low-set sights, no optics cut atop the slide, and the hinged trigger.
View attachment 217338

I don't like the new optics-ready version with "suppressor-height" sights, and am wary of the new flat trigger. I don't like the looks of the the additional front-of-slide serrations either, or the way S&W seems to have emphasised/sharpened the diagonal transition line at the muzzle, from top of the slide down to the bottom edge. The original slide is smoother / more rounded. Compare the two pics to see what I mean.
View attachment 217339

I see the clear advantage of red dot sights on pistols. Frankly, people having no pistol experience "can't miss" after just 5 practice shots. So it's a game changer, but I'm not sure I want it. I almost never get to shoot these days so my skills are rusty, but I know how to shoot and in the heat of the moment instinctive point shooting is pretty much what happens. I may want to install a red dot in the future, but not now.

I don't see any standard-height replacement sights available (yet) for the new, tall "suppressor-height" sights. And I don't want to spend another $50 to $100 to replace those "new" sights, which make the optics-ready pistol more expensive in the first place.

On the other hand, if I can find the original-version pistol, I can mount a red dot sight on it later via a mounting plate that engages the rear sight dovetail. Of course, that means I lose the rear iron sight... I don't like that, either.

So what are you guys doing?

I buy mostly optic ready pistols but im an iron sight enthusiast. Id rather have the ability to put a red dont on then need a new gun, slide or work done later in life

 

[gregkl]

Nah.

I don't disagree with what he says. But then again, I'm an old geezer too! I will still work towards shooting primarily red dots. I have red dots (or another optic) on all my rifles and red dots on my .22 auto and M&P. My revolvers don't have them and mostly likely never will.

I don't have a red dot on my 1911 and may not ever put one on but for now at least it is a safe queen.

Since I started shooting, I always struggled with the concept of front sight focus. In almost every sporting endeavor, you put your focus on the "target" so it just didn't seem right to me. Having a red dot and being able to focus on the target now is more intuitive. Though I do need to "undo" some forced learned behavior.

It may be a trend and it may not be the future. I don't care about that. What I care about is I enjoy shooting more, my wife definitely enjoys shooting with red dots and I can make hits at distance I couldn't with irons.

I don't know if I would fit into the "1 percenter" club as I only get to the range 30 times +/- per year and expend about 5000 rounds but I am shooting at least a little more than the average gun owner.

And lastly, for me, shooting is about fun and potentially competition at some point. Red dots fill that role and the whole argument concerning maintenance, battery life, failures are non issues for me.

 

[88E30M50]

Tim, I thought he said that they are good for locating your gun on a nightstand. I like them for that purpose.

Yup, I missed that point. Given that, I agree with his point. I must have been a couple cups of coffee short of functional when I read that

 

[2AOK]

In the video, Ken Hackathorn makes my point exactly. Go to 6:37 and listen WITH AN OPEN MIND. What he says is the conclusion I reached without firing 100,000 rounds.

 

[Route 45]

His entire argument is totally irrelevant , shooting is a perishable skill and people who are never going to train / practice will always suck. Red dots are not something to do in half measures , either all your guns have them or none do IMHO.

It took me 3 months of dry fire and regular range visits to get good with a dot, but the advantages they give at 10+ yards is so dramatic especially with micro guns like P365's that the cost is worth it to me personally.

Yes they are expensive and not a huge advantage in a sub 5 yard gunfight , but last time I checked gunfights are Open Class you shoot what you brought. The white paper section over hit probability with a red dot should be eye opening to most.

Every time red dots are brought up the argument always boils down to the lowest common denominator shooter and I cannot stand it. I would think the folks on INGO would be more keen on accuracy at distance especially after the Greenwood Mall...

You say his argument is irrelevant, then go on to basically paraphrase everything that he said. With the exception, of course, that you think that you might be the next hero of Greenwood, where he thinks that although that is a very remote possibility, the probabilty is extremely low.

I'll paraphrase the main point that he made, which is why I will not be putting tiny little windows on my pistol that I have to peer through to engage a target. From 0-10 yards, the actual distance at which the vast majority of personal defense encounters occur, there is no advantage in speed or accuracy with a red dot vs. iron sights. And if one were to argue fractions of a second anyway, I would ask them to note the length of time that an adversary can survive and continue pulling the trigger with his heart already completely destroyed by gunfire.

Dirt, dust, debris, a fogged lens, electronics failure and dead batteries will never affect my handgun sighting system.

 

[HEADKNOCKER]

I have noticed that my optic pistols are out for use & my others are lock away or in strategic locations around the home
My Shield Plus & Hellcat see a lot of use lately for carry, both also have night sights factory

 

[BoilerWes]

This video has given me a lot of insight into red dots and shooting in general.

 

[Dean C.]

If you cannot find the dot, perhaps there might be a case of using the front sight as a bit of a crutch in pistol presentation