Pistol Optics, or NOT?

[Dean C.]

Scott is a good guy and a good instructor. There are others out there as well, but lets face it, the vast majority of gun owners get no training.

100% correct , or even attend a competition to see how they actually perform under a modicum of pressure.

Now back to red dots, 100% on handguns at this point especially sub and micro compact guns as it eliminates the issue of sight radius. Also shooting with both eyes open has made transitioning to shooting shotgun clays a lot easier than normal I think.

You don't need training if you do your own research and practice enough on yourself but again most do not. I would venture to guess the average number of rounds through a handgun in America is less than 200 for sure.

 

[ditcherman]

100% correct , or even attend a competition to see how they actually perform under a modicum of pressure.

Now back to red dots, 100% on handguns at this point especially sub and micro compact guns as it eliminates the issue of sight radius. Also shooting with both eyes open has made transitioning to shooting shotgun clays a lot easier than normal I think.

You don't need training if you do your own research and practice enough on yourself but again most do not. I would venture to guess the average number of rounds through a handgun in America is less than 200 for sure.

Even as one with his own range, I get so much out of attending training. For me it is much more meaningful than watching a video. Especially with a good trainer that’s hands on like Aaron Cowan and Gabe White (actually not a red dot guy at all but awesome). Not to mention what you pick up from watching others being trained and shooting.

If someone’s curious about training make sure to check out the tactics and training section. Lebanon PD has a great lineup.

 

[Bluejrdn5]

Anyone run a red dot optical sight and a subcompact laser?

I am currently running a Shield Plus with with CT Micro Rad Pro optic and Streamlight TLR 6 laser/light.
I have it dialed in where the laser and red dot are aligned at 10 yards, the Shield is a tack driver.

 

[melensdad]

I am currently running a Shield Plus with with CT Micro Rad Pro optic and Streamlight TLR 6 laser/light.
I have it dialed in where the laser and red dot are aligned at 10 yards, the Shield is a tack driver.

I have my laser's green "dot" sitting just on top of my front sight at 12 feet and sitting about 3/4" above my front sight at 13.3 yards. My logic is that most self defense shots are close range. FWIW 13.3 yards (40') is the longest straight sightline shot inside my home, and that allows for 3' for my arms reach, my body depth, a bit of space behind my back, etc.

My questions about the usefulness of a Red Dot Optic stem from the actual need, inside these self defense ranges.

In the instance where I used a gun for self defense, it was in a parking lot, the distance was roughly 10-to-12 yards, my gun fortunately was not fired, its presentation stopped the impending incident before criminal activity occurred, causing the 3 fine gentlemen to depart in great haste.

Would a Red Dot optic have made things easier, faster, or me smoother and more confident? Would it add real utility in addition to the laser? I would think I would probably ZERO the Red Dot at 13.3 yards/40 feet. So it would shoot under an just inch high at 12'. In a self defense shooting, anywhere between a few feet and 40' any target between the iron sight, laser spot and a potential Red Dot optic, would be within an inch of each other for impact zone.

 

[MCgrease08]

I would think I would probably ZERO the Red Dot at 13.3 yards/40 feet. So it would shoot under an just inch high at 12'. In a self defense shooting, anywhere between a few feet and 40' any target between the iron sight, laser spot and a potential Red Dot optic, would be within an inch of each other for impact zone.

I have never heard of any instructor recommending a red dot zero of 13.3 yards. Most recommend either 10 or 25 yards. Some throw in 15 as an option.

I think you may be overthinking things slightly. Pick a distance to zero it and train with it. Learn of how and where it impacts, know your holds and rock on.

 

[melensdad]

I have never heard of any instructor recommending a red dot zero of 13.3 yards. Most recommend either 10 or 25 yards. Some throw in 15 as an option.

I think you may be overthinking things slightly. Pick a distance to zero it and train with it. Learn of how and where it impacts, know your holds and rock on.

I understand why an instructor would not. But that instructor is not shooting inside my home.

Further, is it really a "self defense" shot at 25 yards/75 feet? Might be hard to justify that. I'm looking at realistic scenarios and I literally measured distances. If I am in a 15' room, back to the wall, shooting across the room at a doorway, that distance is roughly 12 feet. NOT 75'/25 yards! I'd rather have the laser drop a dot on my target that is going to hit. Sight it in on 75' and the bullet's path is far enough off laser's dot that it realiscajtily could miss a target.

I don't think I am "over thinking" but rather I am using realistic SELF DEFENSE distances to set my laser. And the optic would be set at reasonable distances as well.

 

[cg21]

I understand why an instructor would not. But that instructor is not shooting inside my home.

Further, is it really a "self defense" shot at 25 yards/75 feet? Might be hard to justify that. I'm looking at realistic scenarios and I literally measured distances. If I am in a 15' room, back to the wall, shooting across the room at a doorway, that distance is roughly 12 feet. NOT 75'/25 yards! I'd rather have the laser drop a dot on my target that is going to hit. Sight it in on 75' and the bullet's path is far enough off laser's dot that it realiscajtily could miss a target.

I don't think I am "over thinking" but rather I am using realistic SELF DEFENSE distances to set my laser. And the optic would be set at reasonable distances as well.

25 yards really isn’t that far if someone has a gun and means you harm… heck it isn’t even that far if they have a knife and want to ham you. I don’t think distance can be used as a good yardstick for “self defense” too many variables. I am no professional but if it were me I would be setting the laser to the intended short range and the optic zeroed a bit further out. I don’t think you can over think self defense, works out the mental aspect of the many situations possible. Just my

 

[MCgrease08]

I understand why an instructor would not. But that instructor is not shooting inside my home.

Further, is it really a "self defense" shot at 25 yards/75 feet? Might be hard to justify that. I'm looking at realistic scenarios and I literally measured distances. If I am in a 15' room, back to the wall, shooting across the room at a doorway, that distance is roughly 12 feet. NOT 75'/25 yards! I'd rather have the laser drop a dot on my target that is going to hit. Sight it in on 75' and the bullet's path is far enough off laser's dot that it realiscajtily could miss a target.

I don't think I am "over thinking" but rather I am using realistic SELF DEFENSE distances to set my laser. And the optic would be set at reasonable distances as well.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you since you are going back and forth between red dots and lasers. Not sure where the laser stuff comes in, but let me try and clarify.

Just because you zero an optic at a certain distance, it doesn't mean you can only shoot at things at that distance. So a 25 yard zero doesn't lock you into shooting at a threat at 25 yards. You still have to use all available judgement of what is self defense and what isn't.

If you use a red dot on a home defense gun, a 10 or 15 yard zero might be a better choice for your situation. My point is to pick one and learn where the rounds will actually hit based on point of impact.

Plug things into a ballistics calculator or better yet, go shoot with different zeroes at different distances, and you'll find that they're all pretty close to the same from 50 yards and in. Certainly combat effective.

You can see point of impact calculations for 10, 15, 25 yard zeroes at this link.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/threads/new-to-the-carry-optics-game.478196/post-8661671

If you had a 25 yard zero and shot at something 12 feet away, your bullet drop will only be about a 1/2 inch. I'm pretty sure that's not going to cause you to miss.

On the other hand, if you have a 10 yard zero and shoot at a target 25 yards away, your point of impact is going to be almost an inch high. Fine for center mass hits, but you might need to aim just a little low if a more precise shot is called for. My overall point is that as long as you know all this, you can zero at whatever standard distance you want. Most red dots include a recommended zero distance to make the adjustments easy. None that I have seen are anything like 13.3 yards.

 

[Bluejrdn5]

I have my laser's green "dot" sitting just on top of my front sight at 12 feet and sitting about 3/4" above my front sight at 13.3 yards. My logic is that most self defense shots are close range. FWIW 13.3 yards (40') is the longest straight sightline shot inside my home, and that allows for 3' for my arms reach, my body depth, a bit of space behind my back, etc.

My questions about the usefulness of a Red Dot Optic stem from the actual need, inside these self defense ranges.

In the instance where I used a gun for self defense, it was in a parking lot, the distance was roughly 10-to-12 yards, my gun fortunately was not fired, its presentation stopped the impending incident before criminal activity occurred, causing the 3 fine gentlemen to depart in great haste.

Would a Red Dot optic have made things easier, faster, or me smoother and more confident? Would it add real utility in addition to the laser? I would think I would probably ZERO the Red Dot at 13.3 yards/40 feet. So it would shoot under an just inch high at 12'. In a self defense shooting, anywhere between a few feet and 40' any target between the iron sight, laser spot and a potential Red Dot optic, would be within an inch of each other for impact zone.

I have my optic and laser dialed in at 10 yards mainly to learn the optic better. I messed around with longer and shorter distances to see where the optic was in relation to the target.
I am still new to optics, so this is the reason I set them at 10ft for range time.
The older I get and the weaker my eyes are, I need to get on the optic band wagon imo.

 

[melensdad]

Maybe I am misunderstanding you since you are going back and forth between red dots and lasers. . . . None that I have seen are anything like 13.3 yards.

1 - already have a laser on my gun
2 - 13.3 yards is based on my home. 40 feet is across my living and dining room. 38' is the length of my main hallway past my bedroom door. 42' is a diagonal shot across my living room and open foyer. So 13.3 yards is right at my maximum shooting INSIDE the house.

This is a home defense pistol.

Setting a sight at 10 yards that will be used inside a home with typical shots at 3 to 5 yards seems sort of silly. Using standard measurements to determine how to set a sight on a gun also seems a bit, well let me just say, idiotic.

 

[MCgrease08]

1 - already have a laser on my gun
2 - 13.3 yards is based on my home. 40 feet is across my living and dining room. 38' is the length of my main hallway past my bedroom door. 42' is a diagonal shot across my living room and open foyer. So 13.3 yards is right at my maximum shooting INSIDE the house.

This is a home defense pistol.

Setting a sight at 10 yards that will be used inside a home with typical shots at 3 to 5 yards seems sort of silly. Using standard measurements to determine how to set a sight on a gun also seems a bit, well let me just say, idiotic.

Cool, you do you. It sounds like you have it all figured out.

 

[gregkl]

You can see point of impact calculations for 10, 15, 25 yard zeroes at this link.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/threads/new-to-the-carry-optics-game.478196/post-8661671

That is some nice work! Interesting to see the drop on paper. I zeroed mine for 25 yards(I think. I need to verify).

The only time I notice point of impact effecting me is when I shoot Dot Torture. At 3 yards I have to aim for the top of the dot or I am shooting too low.

Shooting 5,7,10, 15 yards and beyond, I'm close enough to stay in the scoring ring I want.

Maybe when I become a better shot, I'll notice the drops better but at this point, point of impact is mostly operator driven.

 

[MCgrease08]

That is some nice work! Interesting to see the drop on paper. I zeroed mine for 25 yards(I think. I need to verify).

The only time I notice point of impact effecting me is when I shoot Dot Torture. At 3 yards I have to aim for the top of the dot or I am shooting too low.

Shooting 5,7,10, 15 yards and beyond, I'm close enough to stay in the scoring ring I want.

Maybe when I become a better shot, I'll notice the drops better but at this point, point of impact is mostly operator driven.

Same. What's on paper doesn't always translate to real world results unless form and grip are consistent.

The point is, we're talking about fractions of an inch to an inch or two max at self defense distances. I know I tend to overthink this stuff sometimes and get all caught up on the intellectual and theory side of gear selection. Over the years I have learned more by just shooting what I have and learning to use it instead of chasing after gear.

 

[gregkl]

Same. What's on paper doesn't always translate to real world results unless form and grip are consistent.

The point is, we're talking about fractions of an inch to an inch or two max at self defense distances. I know I tend to overthink this stuff sometimes and get all caught up on the intellectual and theory side of gear selection. Over the years I have learned more by just shooting what I have and learning to use it instead of chasing after gear.

I'm actually starting to show some wear on my M&P. Something I have always wanted. It's an indicator that I actually shoot some!

It helps when you are saving your funds for other stuff, like retirement, food and shelter to quit chasing after the latest, greatest and use what you have.

I am a classic overthinker and I am working on not being one.

 

[Bosshoss]

It seems like worrying about A half inch high or low inside 25 yards is silly. This is way inside the the accuracy of most shooters at these distances. Most shooters can't shoot 3 or 4 inch groups at 40 feet unsupported.
This also falls in the mechanical limit of many guns.
If you can't shoot or your gun can't hold half inch groups at that distance then the bullet hitting a half inch low or high is really a moot point.

 

[cedartop]

What does Jedlinski say when talking about what zero to use? Something like, If you can't shoot, it doesn't really matter what zero you use, and if you can shoot, it doesn't really matter what zero you use.

 

[Bassat]

What does Jedlinski say when talking about what zero to use? Something like, If you can't shoot, it doesn't really matter what zero you use, and if you can shoot, it doesn't really matter what zero you use.

Agreed. I zeroed my M16A1 at 250 meters. I never once, in 9 years in uniform, zeroed an M1911A1. Why? Two reasons: inside of 50', zero is irrelevant. And, in that tactical situation, you are not aiming, you are point shooting.

I shoot my assortment of hanguns out to 25 yards. In almost 50 years of doing so, it has never occurred to me to zero a handgun. I do not believe that it matters, tactically. Bonus point: I can see that far; I don't need an RDS.

 

[ditcherman]

Some, maybe all, of those don't co-witness with many handguns. So reliable as they may be, if they fail then you have nothing to fall back on.



Sights like the Romeo Pro 1 simply don't do that for the compact handguns. Seems like folly to try to use those on any gun where there is no co-witness ability with the stock sights.

Did some work today at the range with your post in mind. Had a Romeo1 Pro, they have a little slot in the back to sorta kinda represent a rear sight (my rear sight is below the body of the dot) - and using that slot and the front sight point of impact was 1 1/2” high at 7 yards. So now I know if the dot fails, aim a little low, depending on distance.

I still say you do not want irons sticking up in the window, at least not halfway or even a third, when using a red dot. It will hinder your ability to learn the dot. Just my opinion, worth what you paid for it

 

[ditcherman]

What does Jedlinski say when talking about what zero to use? Something like, If you can't shoot, it doesn't really matter what zero you use, and if you can shoot, it doesn't really matter what zero you use.

I like this a lot.
For all the dots I have, and how much I love them, I have no idea “where” they’re sighted in at. I’m sure it’s not 25 yards. Could be 7. I really don’t know.
But I can consistently ring an 8” plate at 50.

 

[cedartop]

Agreed. I zeroed my M16A1 at 250 meters. I never once, in 9 years in uniform, zeroed an M1911A1. Why? Two reasons: inside of 50', zero is irrelevant. And, in that tactical situation, you are not aiming, you are point shooting.

I shoot my assortment of hanguns out to 25 yards. In almost 50 years of doing so, it has never occurred to me to zero a handgun. I do not believe that it matters, tactically. Bonus point: I can see that far; I don't need an RDS.

That is totally not what that means, but ok.