Pistol Optics, or NOT?

[cedartop]

I've found my groups to be very good, but speed is a little slow as I'm still used to focusing on the front sight (even though I can't actually focus on it anymore). I'm good at target focus for the first few drills, but I still revert back to front sight focus after that. It's weird how I'll find myself drawing and actually trying to focus on the dot. I'll notice it and then consciously revert back to focusing on the target.

Stop me if you have already tried this, but occluding the optic and doing a bunch of dry work that way (or live if you are ammo rich) can help a lot with learning to target focus.

 

[ditcherman]

Stop me if you have already tried this, but occluding the optic and doing a bunch of dry work that way (or live if you are ammo rich) can help a lot with learning to target focus.

At least start out with live so you can see how well it actually works occluded. Most I’ve seen were amazed, I know I was. Then move to dry, with confidence.

 

[Gabriel]

Stop me if you have already tried this, but occluding the optic and doing a bunch of dry work that way (or live if you are ammo rich) can help a lot with learning to target focus.

We do it with rifles a bunch, but I haven't actually tried it on the handgun. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[melensdad]

Just don’t want to trust my life in a self defense scenario to something that may fault, but on that note anything could malfunction so it is preference

That WAS my thought too but now there are red dot sights small enough to co-witness with the iron sights so even if the sight fails, battery death, lens pops out, etc, the iron sights are still available ON THE LOW PROFILE MODELS that allow for TRUE co-witnessing of the irons.

There appear to be quite a few brands/models available that co-witness. I've not committed yet. I've got a Hellcat OSP, it uses the popular Shield RMSc mounting pattern. I'm almost ready to commit, but I'm still deciding on budget and brand. I have fading eyes, thinking that this, with practice, would be easier to use than iron sights.

Shield SMSc, Swampfox Sentinal, VectorOptics Frenzy, Viridian RFX15, SigSauer RomeoZero, Holoson 507K X2, and many others all allow for true co-witnessing with iron. Price points range from about $100 to roughly $300, I can see that as an issue.

They weigh less than 1 oz each so weight is not an issue either.

The sights literally sit at the belt line in a holster, so shouldn't be felt during carry and any 'bulk' added would be inconsequential in most holsters.

What I don't know is, if a $100 sight is reliable, why would someone spend $300 for a sight. These are zero magnification units. Battery life for all are roughly a couple years. So change it out every 18 months for safety's sake.

Am I missing something?

 

[melensdad]

Anyone run a red dot optical sight and a subcompact laser?

 

[ditcherman]

That WAS my thought too but now there are red dot sights small enough to co-witness with the iron sights so even if the sight fails, battery death, lens pops out, etc, the iron sights are still available ON THE LOW PROFILE MODELS that allow for TRUE co-witnessing of the irons.

There appear to be quite a few brands/models available that co-witness. I've not committed yet. I've got a Hellcat OSP, it uses the popular Shield RMSc mounting pattern. I'm almost ready to commit, but I'm still deciding on budget and brand. I have fading eyes, thinking that this, with practice, would be easier to use than iron sights.

Shield SMSc, Swampfox Sentinal, VectorOptics Frenzy, Viridian RFX15, SigSauer RomeoZero, Holoson 507K X2, and many others all allow for true co-witnessing with iron. Price points range from about $100 to roughly $300, I can see that as an issue.

They weigh less than 1 oz each so weight is not an issue either.

The sights literally sit at the belt line in a holster, so shouldn't be felt during carry and any 'bulk' added would be inconsequential in most holsters.

What I don't know is, if a $100 sight is reliable, why would someone spend $300 for a sight. These are zero magnification units. Battery life for all are roughly a couple years. So change it out every 18 months for safety's sake.

Am I missing something?

I don’t mean to offend here, or sound snobbish, but I don’t agree with your logic of feeling the need to co-witness irons and dot for reliabilities sake, but not be willing to buy that reliability from the get-go. I wouldn’t consider a $300 red dot. Probably walk right past it. Now, maybe I’m the one missing out and wasting money, but I’d rather buy once cry once than take a chance on a $100-$300 optic. And maybe that has something to do with me being only in the full size market.

I haven’t read reviews of those optics, so I obviously don’t know what I don’t know, but if you’re concerned about reliability (obvious on a self defense weapon) I would look long and hard at reviews of those.
That being said, I’m a pretty big fanboy of the Romeo1 Pro, and Aaron Cowan of Sage Dynamics rates them very low in reliability. I’ve gotten along great with them.

 

[melensdad]

... I’m a pretty big fanboy of the Romeo1 Pro, and Aaron Cowan of Sage Dynamics rates them very low in reliability. I’ve gotten along great with them.

Some, maybe all, of those don't co-witness with many handguns. So reliable as they may be, if they fail then you have nothing to fall back on.

Holosun seems to be darn near bullet proof for reliability. Ditto Shield. Swapfox gets high reviews. RomeoZero gets low reviews. I've been looking. Reading. Seems like the ultimate choice is a sight that has a low enough body that IF/WHEN it fails you can co-witness with factory sights.

Sights like the Romeo Pro 1 simply don't do that for the compact handguns. Seems like folly to try to use those on any gun where there is no co-witness ability with the stock sights.

 

[ditcherman]

Some, maybe all, of those don't co-witness with many handguns. So reliable as they may be, if they fail then you have nothing to fall back on.

Holosun seems to be darn near bullet proof for reliability. Ditto Shield. Swapfox gets high reviews. RomeoZero gets low reviews. I've been looking. Reading. Seems like the ultimate choice is a sight that has a low enough body that IF/WHEN it fails you can co-witness with factory sights.

Sights like the Romeo Pro 1 simply don't do that for the compact handguns. Seems like folly to try to use those on any gun where there is no co-witness ability with the stock sights.

For my guns, P320’s, P226’s, CZ 75’s, the irons dictate whether or not cowitnessing happens. I’ve had a couple that did, but now I’m at the point where I absolutely do not want the sights to cowitness, so much so that I took my rmr off my FN Fnx45 Tactical that has suppressor height sights. It’s the first optic I bought and I struggled greatly to learn the dot. Laid the gun down and went another direction. Once I had a better presentation I was ok with the higher sights and the smaller rmr, but now with the rmr on a P320 I really like it, with no sights in the way.

None of mine have sights in the way, some are barely at the top edge of the body of the dot, some have no rear sight.

It will be interesting to hear if you have a similar experience on your journey. I did a lot of reading and thinking beforehand, and there was no way I could have ‘thought’ myself into what I believe now. It’s cool everyone has their own journey or evolution and we can learn from it.

 

[Bassat]

I have no interest in pistol optics. End of sentence. Full stop. Period.

 

[cg21]

So I got a very cheap red dot and it is HARD to find the dots at times. I am wondering if the more high end dots are easier to find or is it a training issue? Or both?

 

[MCgrease08]

Some, maybe all, of those don't co-witness with many handguns. So reliable as they may be, if they fail then you have nothing to fall back on

This fear comes up in every one of these red dot threads. My guess is that it's already been addressed in this one too, but I will address it again.

There are ways to get hits without the dot, including using the optic body itself to aim. Seriously. Take a red dot training class and you'll learn that having the dot fail and go bye bye isn't the death sentence non red dot users make it out to be.

You can learn to get on target without using iron sights at self defense ranges. Red dots are no different.

So I got a very cheap red dot and it is HARD to find the dots at times. I am wondering if the more high end dots are easier to find or is it a training issue? Or both?

It's a training and presentation issue. You may have to undo years of muscle memory and present the pistol in a slightly different way on the draw stroke. This is pretty normal since most folks use a muzzle up presentation with traditional sights then drop the front site down while bringing the rear sight up into alignment. That technique with a red dot will generally leave you searching for the dot.

I've found it's better to get the slide parallel with the ground earlier in the draw stroke, then bring it all up into your eye line. Aaron Cowan calls this "riding the escalator." Other trainers may teach a slightly different technique. But it is not the same motion as it is with iron sites.

 

[cg21]

This fear comes up in every one of these red dot threads. My guess is that it's already been addressed in this one too, but I will address it again.

There are ways to get hits without the dot, including using the optic body itself to aim. Seriously. Take a red dot training class and you'll learn that having the dot fail and go bye bye isn't the death sentence non red dot users make it out to be.

You can learn to get on target without using iron sights at self defense ranges. Red dots are no different.


It's a training and presentation issue. You may have to undo years of muscle memory and present the pistol in a slightly different way on the draw stroke. This is pretty normal since most folks use a muzzle up presentation with traditional sights then drop the front site down while bringing the rear sight up into alignment. That technique with a red dot will generally leave you searching for the dot.

I've found it's better to get the slide parallel with the ground earlier in the draw stroke, then bring it all up into your eye line. Aaron Cowan calls this "riding the escalator." Other trainers may teach a slightly different technique. But it is not the same motion as it is with iron sites.

Good to know my experience is limited. But knowing it is a training issue is helpful. I have considered one of those “training” type holosun i forgot the name of the reticle but it shows what direction to move the housing to find the dot.

 

[MCgrease08]

It's not really about round count. It's much more about reps on your draw stroke and establishing a new muscle memory.

The presentation with a red dot is faster when you are target focused and bring the dot into your line of sight rather than being front sight focused and then transitioning your eyes to the target.

Bump.

 

[MCgrease08]

Good to know my experience is limited. But knowing it is a training issue is helpful. I have considered one of those “training” type holosun i forgot the name of the reticle but it shows what direction to move the housing to find the dot.

The Vulcan ACSS reticle. That's what I have on my EDC. In general, I recommend it.

 

[MCgrease08]

More food for thought.

New to the carry optics game...

I was gonna wait until I got old and could no longer see the iron sights on my pistols to go to the red dot sight. Then some circumstances changed, when I upgraded my carry gun. The new gun was a MOS version. I thought the MOS slot would be great for when I got old and would just stay covered...

www.indianagunowners.com

 

[cg21]

The Vulcan ACSS reticle. That's what I have on my EDC. In general, I recommend it.

Thanks

 

[MCgrease08]

Thanks

I have a thread about my experience using it.

New Holosun pistol red dot - Holosun 507C ACSS Vulcan reticle

Holosun is collaborating with Primary Arms to bring a new micro red dot reticle to the market. It was originally supposed to called the Cyclops and was in process of being released prior to Trijicon's lawsuit against Holosun. Now that all that's settled it's being released as the "Vulcan" with...

www.indianagunowners.com

 

[cedartop]

That WAS my thought too but now there are red dot sights small enough to co-witness with the iron sights so even if the sight fails, battery death, lens pops out, etc, the iron sights are still available ON THE LOW PROFILE MODELS that allow for TRUE co-witnessing of the irons.

There appear to be quite a few brands/models available that co-witness. I've not committed yet. I've got a Hellcat OSP, it uses the popular Shield RMSc mounting pattern. I'm almost ready to commit, but I'm still deciding on budget and brand. I have fading eyes, thinking that this, with practice, would be easier to use than iron sights.

Shield SMSc, Swampfox Sentinal, VectorOptics Frenzy, Viridian RFX15, SigSauer RomeoZero, Holoson 507K X2, and many others all allow for true co-witnessing with iron. Price points range from about $100 to roughly $300, I can see that as an issue.

They weigh less than 1 oz each so weight is not an issue either.

The sights literally sit at the belt line in a holster, so shouldn't be felt during carry and any 'bulk' added would be inconsequential in most holsters.

What I don't know is, if a $100 sight is reliable, why would someone spend $300 for a sight. These are zero magnification units. Battery life for all are roughly a couple years. So change it out every 18 months for safety's sake.

Am I missing something?

Some, maybe all, of those don't co-witness with many handguns. So reliable as they may be, if they fail then you have nothing to fall back on.

Holosun seems to be darn near bullet proof for reliability. Ditto Shield. Swapfox gets high reviews. RomeoZero gets low reviews. I've been looking. Reading. Seems like the ultimate choice is a sight that has a low enough body that IF/WHEN it fails you can co-witness with factory sights.

Sights like the Romeo Pro 1 simply don't do that for the compact handguns. Seems like folly to try to use those on any gun where there is no co-witness ability with the stock sights.

Not sure if we are on the same page but since you bold it, I do not want TRUE cowitnessing. I do want iron sights but I want them low enough in the window to be unobtrusive and just high enough to use them if need be. Think lower 1/3 or 1/4 or even 1/5.

Of the sights you list I would only trust the Holosun 507k and even then none of these are bulletproof. I have seen enough sights fail in enough different ways that I am not going without irons on a carry gun. On my match guns, yes I don't bother setting them up. To each their own but I am not buying a $100 sight and trusting my life to it. As things stand right now, $300 would be about the minimum.

I change batteries om a 1 year max schedule. On my match guns I change them more often than that. On my carry guns I do a daily check of them as I have had batteries in Holsun's go TU in less than a year. My Trijicon RMR's, which I have been using since 2010 have always made it more than a year. It is too bad Trijicon has fallen so far behind the innovation curve.

The sight itself can definitely cause a gun to print. These guys that are running these "mailbox" optics have to dress around the gun because they are big and stick out whether they want to admit it or not.

The Romeo 1 Pro on my Sig X compact does a cowitness just fine and it has been a good sight. Overall they are not highly thought of though. Mine has been great but that gun/sight combo don't have a lot of rounds through it. One class and a couple of matches so I can't really comment on long term reliability like I can some of the others I have with tens of thousands of round on them.

It should also be kept in mind that the smaller the window is the harder it is to use, especially so for moderately and lower skilled users. Even though I know it is not the case, anyone carrying a red dot for defensive purposes should get out and run a good objective shooting test, something like the 5 yard round up, to see how well they pick up the dot under time constraints. Just standing on a line and plinking isn't goin to get it done.

Adressing the not needing irons because there are other ways to shoot guns at self defense distances crowd. Yes, there are, if you know your fight is going to be within a certain close distance you can "point" shoot or use some other alternative indexing method. My problem with that is two fold (or more). If I wanted to do that, why go to a dot at all? Practice is still required for those other methods. Also, you don't know what your fight is going to look like, it may be a long or particularly difficult precision shot.

 

[ChrisK]

I found that Scott Jedlinski of the Modern Samurai Project helped me tremendously on using a red dot on a pistol. I now have no problem in picking up the dot. I think most of it comes down to training.

 

[cedartop]

I found that Scott Jedlinski of the Modern Samurai Project helped me tremendously on using a red dot on a pistol. I now have no problem in picking up the dot. I think most of it comes down to training.

Scott is a good guy and a good instructor. There are others out there as well, but lets face it, the vast majority of gun owners get no training.