Pistol Optics, or NOT?

[2AOK]

Are YOU buying Optics-ready pistols now?

I'm in the market for a Smith & Wesson M&P 2.0 pistol, or I should say I will be when/if prices come down and supply normalizes.

I like the original 2.0 configuration. No-snag low-set sights, no optics cut atop the slide, and the hinged trigger.


I don't like the new optics-ready version with "suppressor-height" sights, and am wary of the new flat trigger. I don't like the looks of the the additional front-of-slide serrations either, or the way S&W seems to have emphasised/sharpened the diagonal transition line at the muzzle, from top of the slide down to the bottom edge. The original slide is smoother / more rounded. Compare the two pics to see what I mean.


I see the clear advantage of red dot sights on pistols. Frankly, people having no pistol experience "can't miss" after just 5 practice shots. So it's a game changer, but I'm not sure I want it. I almost never get to shoot these days so my skills are rusty, but I know how to shoot and in the heat of the moment instinctive point shooting is pretty much what happens. I may want to install a red dot in the future, but not now.

I don't see any standard-height replacement sights available (yet) for the new, tall "suppressor-height" sights. And I don't want to spend another $50 to $100 to replace those "new" sights, which make the optics-ready pistol more expensive in the first place.

On the other hand, if I can find the original-version pistol, I can mount a red dot sight on it later via a mounting plate that engages the rear sight dovetail. Of course, that means I lose the rear iron sight... I don't like that, either.

So what are you guys doing?

 

[Expat]

I bought one of the M&P 10mm. Put an optic on it. I think it would take me a lot of rounds to get used to that. Everything just feels kind of foreign. I have to hold stuff in different positions to line it up right, which seems counterintuitive. So I dunno.

 

[MCgrease08]

All of my future semi auto pistol purchases will be optic ready if there is even a chance I would carry them. My EDC has a dot on it and I don't plan on going back to irons only.

I had the slide of my VP9 milled for the optic and that process was expensive and took a lot of time as there are only a few places that would do the milling.

For range only guns the option to add an optic is less important.

All that said, I am a defensive minded pistol shooter, not a collector. Obviously there are some collectible guns that I would consider a crime to put a dot on, but I wouldn't be carrying those anyway.

 

[Born2vette]

Are YOU buying Optics-ready pistols now?

I'm in the market for a Smith & Wesson M&P 2.0 pistol, or I should say I will be when/if prices come down and supply normalizes.

I like the original 2.0 configuration. No-snag low-set sights, no optics cut atop the slide, and the hinged trigger.
View attachment 217338

I don't like the new optics-ready version with "suppressor-height" sights, and am wary of the new flat trigger. I don't like the looks of the the additional front-of-slide serrations either, or the way S&W seems to have emphasised/sharpened the diagonal transition line at the muzzle, from top of the slide down to the bottom edge. The original slide is smoother / more rounded. Compare the two pics to see what I mean.
View attachment 217339

I see the clear advantage of red dot sights on pistols. Frankly, people having no pistol experience "can't miss" after just 5 practice shots. So it's a game changer, but I'm not sure I want it. I almost never get to shoot these days so my skills are rusty, but I know how to shoot and in the heat of the moment instinctive point shooting is pretty much what happens. I may want to install a red dot in the future, but not now.

I don't see any standard-height replacement sights available (yet) for the new, tall "suppressor-height" sights. And I don't want to spend another $50 to $100 to replace those "new" sights, which make the optics-ready pistol more expensive in the first place.

On the other hand, if I can find the original-version pistol, I can mount a red dot sight on it later via a mounting plate that engages the rear sight dovetail. Of course, that means I lose the rear iron sight... I don't like that, either.

So what are you guys doing?

Not sure what your target price point is but there are plenty of them out there for reasonable prices. They still make the “original” configuration.

New with free shipping $525 + tax: https://www.smga.com/smith-and-wesson/mp-9-20-9mm-17rd-5-fde-2566

Used: my LGS has at least 2 starting around $450 and he is not the cheapest place to find used guns (but fair and easy to work with): https://store.webuyguns.com/smith-and-wesson-m-p9-2-0-fde-9mm/

 

[2AOK]

I have to hold stuff in different positions to line it up right, which seems counterintuitive. So I dunno.

I'm glad to hear that. It's the opposite of what I expected to hear, but it supports my reluctance to jump into the red dot ...trend.

Thanks for that helpful (and surprising) insight.

 

[Scott58]

Been looking at them. Only a matter of time.

 

[2AOK]

All of my future semi auto pistol purchases will be optic ready if there is even a chance I would carry them.

Yeah, that seems to be the trend. I don't like it, and it's already difficult to conceal effectively (in some instances), even without the added optic.

It seems that just about ANYBODY is able to hit by simply putting that dot on the target. Even if the "target" is jumpin' around trying not to get shot while trying to kill you. =O

Unfortunately, the red dot is an equalizer...for the predators too.

 

[2AOK]

Not sure what your target price point is but there are plenty of them out there for reasonable prices. They still make the “original” configuration.

First, thank you for the suggestions and the links. My price point is probably unrealistic, now and in the near future. A while back I bought a new 2.0 Compact online for about $380. Prices are about $100 above that at present, BUT...I've seen a couple of prices drop recently. One of your links at $522 is an example of that. Fingers crossed.

I spoke with S&W recently. In my experience, ALL firearms mfr phone reps are "less than forthcoming" so I don't take what they say seriously. That said, he told me there are no plans at present to discontinue the standard, non-optics-ready 2.0 pistol versions. He advised that such determinations are usually made at year end, and followed-up by saying, "...unless we release an entirely new 3.0 version (of the product line)."

 

[2AOK]

Been looking at them. Only a matter of time.

Only a matter of time before...what?
Before you buy one? Or before every pistol is optics-ready, and every crim/predator has the benefit of optics...?

 

[IUKalash429]

I'm on my second RDS-equipped carry gun. Still practicing, still learning, still getting the hang of things, but as my proficiency approves I really can't imagine going back to iron sights on a modern EDC pistol. Same goes for a WML. Dara makes nice holsters for a lot of configurations.

 

[Born2vette]

All my carry pistols have iron sights. That said, I can see moving to more advanced optics as I age further. Having worn glasses most of my life and now at that age where I need multifocal lenses I find it increasingly more difficult to focus on the front sight. That is part of why I practice frequently. However, my bedside pistol has been fitted with a red dot as I find without glasses on I am more likely to get a good hit with it although it does take me a split second longer to get on target. Given I am most likely to use that pistol in the middle of the night without glasses I feel it is a reasonable trade off. That pistol also has a light mounted on it.

Just my

 

[hammerd13]

I'd go for the optic-cut version. Even it you don't want the red dot now, you may in the future...or the next owner may want that option. Also...the front slide serrations, will vastly improve the ease of performing press checks.

Red dots are superior to irons on a handgun, for most applications. They're absolutely a force multiplier...making fairly long/precise shots much easier. The red dot technology has progressed to the point of utter reliability, especially with Trijicon and a couple others (e.g. Holosun).

Red dots also allow you to target focus, as there is no need to switch your focus from front sight to target and back to front sight. By staying target focused, you'll be able to pay attention to what your target is doing as you're preparing for trigger press. I'll also say, that a red dot can assist you in diagnosing shooting issues (grip, shot anticipation, etc.)...something that irons can't reveal to you.

I'm 52 and have shot with a blurry front sight for the last few years. The red dot will change your world (for the better), in this scenario.

 

[BoilerWes]

Just recently got into red dots on pistols. For me, it’s not been as intuitive as some would lead you to believe. However, I can certainly see some advantages for sure. It’s just going to take some more practice for me to be as proficient with a red dot as with irons. Overall, I do believe there is advantage to buying optic ready pistols…even if you end up not using and perhaps one day may decide to sell. My 2 cents.

 

[Bigtanker]

I bought an M&P 2.0 Pro Series CORE earlier this year. I haven't mounted an optic on it yet and I haven't had the time to dedicate to learning it yet. Draws and dry fires are really needed on a daily basis to get good with it. (I've heard this from many good trainers and others who have switched).

As to the height of the sights on the CORE model, you'll need to shop for holsters a bit more carefully. I bought a decent leather OWB and getting the pistol out was an issue. I ended up with. Kydex OWB and an IWB from Bravo Concealment that works with it. They are also cut for a dot.
Carrying it with the high sights isn't any different.

You do have another option if you want standard height sights. Buy a pistol that isn't optic ready and have the slide milled for your particular optic choice. It will sit much lower that the factory cuts.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Slightly off topic, but are the reflexive sights like Holosun, etc., "shake awake"? Or do you have to turn them on manually? Forgive my ignorance but I'm only familiar with red dots on rifles.

 

[jwamplerusa]

I have both a 5 inch M&P 2.0 Pro Series which has a Holosun 509T on it. You can read more about the saga off that configuration here. Simply said buyer beware.

The other is a 2.0 4 inch compact. It now wears a Delta Point micro. I have come to like the DP micro, but it has taken many rounds and much work to reach what I consider to be a reasonably proficient state.

I am knocking on the door of 60, near sighted with lots of astigmatism and some scaring on my left eye. A red dot on pistols was simply magic! It enables a level of precision at distance that I simply can no longer achieve with iron sights. You have to put in work to be proficient, and refine your technique, as a red dot magnifies every flaw.

I gravitated to the Sage Dynamics (Aaron Cowan) videos, which helped me greatly. One point on the M&P, I found I needed to modify my grip to tighten my support hand pinky to get the dot acquisition and recoil control I wanted.

I may move to a larger red dot on the compact one day, but if I do it will be an enclosed optic, and a directly milled slide. I don't know if I will ever trust an OEM optic cut again. At the minimum I'll figure in a steel C&H precision weapons plate if I do.

 

[gregr]

I`ve heard a lot of knowledgeable people comment that laser sights ruin good shooting form. I`m far from expert, but would tend to take their concerns to heart. As far as the other sights, primarily, defensive handguns are very short range weapons. I have had night-sights installed on my Glock .45`s, and have considered installing night-sights on my Colt Python, but for my Glock 42, (the Glock .380), I don`t feel compelled to put night sights on such an obviously close-range sidearm. I know that everyone`s situations, circumstances, and thinking compel them to do different things. Personally, I would strongly consider the opinions of proven gunfight experts, but, as much as anything, I would go by each individuals gut-instincts.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

I`ve heard a lot of knowledgeable people comment that laser sights ruin good shooting form. I`m far from expert, but would tend to take their concerns to heart. As far as the other sights, primarily, defensive handguns are very short range weapons. I have had night-sights installed on my Glock .45`s, and have considered installing night-sights on my Colt Python, but for my Glock 42, (the Glock .380), I don`t feel compelled to put night sights on such an obviously close-range sidearm. I know that everyone`s situations, circumstances, and thinking compel them to do different things. Personally, I would strongly consider the opinions of proven gunfight experts, but, as much as anything, I would go by each individuals gut-instincts.

I'll never get laser sights. But red dots aren't laser sights.

 

[hammerd13]

Slightly off topic, but are the reflexive sights like Holosun, etc., "shake awake"? Or do you have to turn them on manually? Forgive my ignorance but I'm only familiar with red dots on rifles.

I run a Holosun 507C-X2 and it's shake awake. Battery life is advertised at 50,000 hours (if using dot reticle)...plus it has solar backup. I plan to change battery annually. Battery is easily accessible from the side (no need to remove red dot from firearm for battery change).

Trijicon RMR Type 2 doesn't have shake awake and is always on. It has a slightly lower battery life (advertised), although should easily get you through a year of "always on". It does have a 16.5 hour battery conservation mode, where brightness is reverted back to auto level from manual. Optic must be removed from firearm to change battery.

 

[NHT3]

Joe at Parabellum has been talking to me about putting together a basic RDS class but I haven't done it yet, wasn't sure how much interest there might be. Maybe I should work on that, sounds like it might be popular.
I will be the first to say I don't know it all but I have been carrying a pistol with an optic for several years as well as shooting carry gun and Action pistol and I'm very comfortable with it.
Key is consistent presentation and it is a slightly different presentation than with iron sights. Being focused on the target rather than the front sight is, what I believe the main reason a RDS improves speed as well as accuracy but as most has experienced, finding the dot can initially be a challenge. It gets easier and I think if you stick with it you will find it's more intuitive that iron sights. Just my