Pistol Optics, or NOT?

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  • nad63

    Expert
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    10   0   0
    Oct 3, 2011
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    I never really cared to have a dot on my handgun, but my employer is talking of replacing some of our duty weapons with some with dots (and then replacing them all if we like the initial 18). I'm the one that is going to have to do the training for the transition. Because of this, I just bought a Glock 19 MOS, which I will pick up tomorrow due to always being delayed. I bought a super cheap PA red dot to mount on it ( I wanted an ACRO P-2, but couldn't find one in stock anywhere ) to see how I like it and to start training with so I have time with one before we get them next year.

    I'm still not sold on red dots on handguns, but time will tell if I change my mind. With an astygmatism and older eyes ( have been using readers for the last few years ) I may end up not liking it.
    The fact that many PD’s are adopting rds is testament enough. This is the future no doubt in my mind.
    Don’t sell yourself out and go for the cheapest dot you can get as you are just setting yourself up for failure. No disrespect to PA offerings as plenty of good offerings at a lower price point that gets people engaged.
    If you are a new shooter maybe skip the 10,000 rounds plus thru irons and go straight to a rds. I know it’s sacrilege to some but it save that $5k in ammo and spend it on getting proficient with a reputable rds. The list of reputable rds is growing daily. You have to unlearn iron sight methodology. Some revered trainers recommend not having irons on their rds training guns. IE don’t line up your irons and then find the dot. If you have no irons you are forced to find the dot.
    The gun industry has recognized the importance of rds and you can get common flavors in MOS and also direct attachment versions (no adapter plate which adds minimal height to your rds sight picture).
    Younger eyes may rule the irons and older shooters will see the benefit of the rds. Imagine having young eyes and going straight to the rds and getting those same 10,000 plus rounds of reps.
     

    MCgrease08

    Grandmaster
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    37   0   0
    Mar 14, 2013
    14,374
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    Earth
    The fact that many PD’s are adopting rds is testament enough. This is the future no doubt in my mind.
    Don’t sell yourself out and go for the cheapest dot you can get as you are just setting yourself up for failure. No disrespect to PA offerings as plenty of good offerings at a lower price point that gets people engaged.
    If you are a new shooter maybe skip the 10,000 rounds plus thru irons and go straight to a rds. I know it’s sacrilege to some but it save that $5k in ammo and spend it on getting proficient with a reputable rds. The list of reputable rds is growing daily. You have to unlearn iron sight methodology. Some revered trainers recommend not having irons on their rds training guns. IE don’t line up your irons and then find the dot. If you have no irons you are forced to find the dot.
    The gun industry has recognized the importance of rds and you can get common flavors in MOS and also direct attachment versions (no adapter plate which adds minimal height to your rds sight picture).
    Younger eyes may rule the irons and older shooters will see the benefit of the rds. Imagine having young eyes and going straight to the rds and getting those same 10,000 plus rounds of reps.
    ^^ This times ten ^^
     

    Rookie

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    14   0   0
    Sep 22, 2008
    18,155
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    Kokomo
    The fact that many PD’s are adopting rds is testament enough. This is the future no doubt in my mind.
    Don’t sell yourself out and go for the cheapest dot you can get as you are just setting yourself up for failure. No disrespect to PA offerings as plenty of good offerings at a lower price point that gets people engaged.
    If you are a new shooter maybe skip the 10,000 rounds plus thru irons and go straight to a rds. I know it’s sacrilege to some but it save that $5k in ammo and spend it on getting proficient with a reputable rds. The list of reputable rds is growing daily. You have to unlearn iron sight methodology. Some revered trainers recommend not having irons on their rds training guns. IE don’t line up your irons and then find the dot. If you have no irons you are forced to find the dot.
    The gun industry has recognized the importance of rds and you can get common flavors in MOS and also direct attachment versions (no adapter plate which adds minimal height to your rds sight picture).
    Younger eyes may rule the irons and older shooters will see the benefit of the rds. Imagine having young eyes and going straight to the rds and getting those same 10,000 plus rounds of reps.
    Agreed. Pm sent
     

    Gabriel

    Grandmaster
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    9   0   0
    Jun 3, 2010
    6,713
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    The shore of wonderful Lake Michigan
    Don’t sell yourself out and go for the cheapest dot you can get as you are just setting yourself up for failure. No disrespect to PA offerings as plenty of good offerings at a lower price point that gets people engaged.
    I'm pretty set on an Aimpoint ACRO P-2 after seeing a big assortment of RDS on Glock pistols a few weeks ago. The PA was an impulse buy simply because I can't find the Aimpoint in stock. I should have just waited, but it's here now on my desk. Once I find a P-2, the PA will go on a rimfire.
     

    Gabriel

    Grandmaster
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    9   0   0
    Jun 3, 2010
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    The shore of wonderful Lake Michigan
    The astigmatism may be an issue depending on how bad it is, but the need for readers (like me) doesn't negatively affect using a dot.

    Actually it helps because it removes having to either wear readers while shooting irons or looking at a fuzzy front sight.

    I have switched back to my dot beginning last weekend. What I thought was a dot issue was a crappy factory trigger issue.

    I've been using red dots on rifles for years and am used to the oblong slash that all dots look like to me, I'll just have to see if it makes any difference if it;s on a handgun. I'm guessing not, but we will see.

    This is the first year I've started noticing that the front sight on my rifles is blurry, so my eyes have gotten slightly worse. I know pretty much everyone deals with it eventually, but it doesn't make it any less frustrating to me. I'm still surprisingly accurate with them, though, so there is that. Hey, even the blurry front sight has a center.
     

    gregkl

    Outlier
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    33   0   0
    Apr 8, 2012
    11,868
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    Bloomington
    The fact that many PD’s are adopting rds is testament enough. This is the future no doubt in my mind.
    Don’t sell yourself out and go for the cheapest dot you can get as you are just setting yourself up for failure. No disrespect to PA offerings as plenty of good offerings at a lower price point that gets people engaged.
    If you are a new shooter maybe skip the 10,000 rounds plus thru irons and go straight to a rds. I know it’s sacrilege to some but it save that $5k in ammo and spend it on getting proficient with a reputable rds. The list of reputable rds is growing daily. You have to unlearn iron sight methodology. Some revered trainers recommend not having irons on their rds training guns. IE don’t line up your irons and then find the dot. If you have no irons you are forced to find the dot.
    The gun industry has recognized the importance of rds and you can get common flavors in MOS and also direct attachment versions (no adapter plate which adds minimal height to your rds sight picture).
    Younger eyes may rule the irons and older shooters will see the benefit of the rds. Imagine having young eyes and going straight to the rds and getting those same 10,000 plus rounds of reps.
    Yup. And this goes for upgrading triggers. I used to buy a handgun and immediately upgrade the triggers. Then the internet warriors said "you should learn how to shoot well with a factory trigger. Once you learn a proper trigger press, it won't matter what the trigger is like."

    Well I just spent 2 years and well over 10K rounds through a factory pistol and finally decided to upgrade the trigger. I should have done this 2 years ago.

    It's old school and old people who perpetuate learning to use traditional systems. This applies to many disciplines, not just shooting.

    That's fine if that is what you want. But don't fault people who choose to embrace new techniques and technology.

    We don't use a Model A to teach our teenage kids how to drive.
     

    gregkl

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    33   0   0
    Apr 8, 2012
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    I've been using red dots on rifles for years and am used to the oblong slash that all dots look like to me, I'll just have to see if it makes any difference if it;s on a handgun. I'm guessing not, but we will see.

    This is the first year I've started noticing that the front sight on my rifles is blurry, so my eyes have gotten slightly worse. I know pretty much everyone deals with it eventually, but it doesn't make it any less frustrating to me. I'm still surprisingly accurate with them, though, so there is that. Hey, even the blurry front sight has a center.
    I shoot my 1911 with a blurry front sight. I can't bring myself to put a dot on that pistol. :) And I shoot it better than my M&P. But that is due to fighting a crappy trigger on my M&P. My new trigger is much closer to the 1911 now.
     

    FNparabellum

    Master
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    38   0   0
    Aug 30, 2022
    1,545
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    Indianapolis
    Are YOU buying Optics-ready pistols now?

    I'm in the market for a Smith & Wesson M&P 2.0 pistol, or I should say I will be when/if prices come down and supply normalizes.

    I like the original 2.0 configuration. No-snag low-set sights, no optics cut atop the slide, and the hinged trigger.
    View attachment 217338

    I don't like the new optics-ready version with "suppressor-height" sights, and am wary of the new flat trigger. I don't like the looks of the the additional front-of-slide serrations either, or the way S&W seems to have emphasised/sharpened the diagonal transition line at the muzzle, from top of the slide down to the bottom edge. The original slide is smoother / more rounded. Compare the two pics to see what I mean.
    View attachment 217339

    I see the clear advantage of red dot sights on pistols. Frankly, people having no pistol experience "can't miss" after just 5 practice shots. So it's a game changer, but I'm not sure I want it. I almost never get to shoot these days so my skills are rusty, but I know how to shoot and in the heat of the moment instinctive point shooting is pretty much what happens. I may want to install a red dot in the future, but not now.

    I don't see any standard-height replacement sights available (yet) for the new, tall "suppressor-height" sights. And I don't want to spend another $50 to $100 to replace those "new" sights, which make the optics-ready pistol more expensive in the first place.

    On the other hand, if I can find the original-version pistol, I can mount a red dot sight on it later via a mounting plate that engages the rear sight dovetail. Of course, that means I lose the rear iron sight... I don't like that, either.

    So what are you guys doing?
    Intresting options here, Im personally not into optics on my pistols but many of the other features I enjoy. The front end serrations make it easer to taco grip the slide and most of my pistols are fitted with a threaded barrel for necessary accessories. Thats where the raised sights come in handy. As for the trigger Ive found flat faced triggers to be an upgrade in most firearms. But this is all just my own opinion.
     

    Gabriel

    Grandmaster
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    9   0   0
    Jun 3, 2010
    6,713
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    The shore of wonderful Lake Michigan
    OK, I like it. I picked up the 19 this morning, came home, stuck all the cool guy stuff for poors on it, and put 200 rounds through it. I only needed to adjust the optic a few clicks left to get it on.

    dot1.jpg


    I was at 18 yards because that's where the tall weeds end ( I need to mow back there). I still have a bad habit of closing my left eye when shooting unless I'm shooting around barricades (for some reason I switch to my left eye when shooting on the left side of barricades, but then I close my right) and found myself doing it today.

    dot2.jpg
     

    Gabriel

    Grandmaster
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    9   0   0
    Jun 3, 2010
    6,713
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    The shore of wonderful Lake Michigan
    Yup. And this goes for upgrading triggers. I used to buy a handgun and immediately upgrade the triggers. Then the internet warriors said "you should learn how to shoot well with a factory trigger. Once you learn a proper trigger press, it won't matter what the trigger is like."
    I'm still pretty old school with the "run the trigger that came in the gun" stuff. My reasoning is slightly different as all my handguns are either issued or get carried off duty and I make it a point to not swap out any internals. I'm used to the Glock trigger (since it is all I've carried in the last 19 years) and don't have an issue with it at all. I'm going to guess that if I swapped out one of my triggers, I'd hate all the stock ones, so I'm not going to put myself through that,
     

    ditcherman

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    Dec 18, 2018
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    OK, I like it. I picked up the 19 this morning, came home, stuck all the cool guy stuff for poors on it, and put 200 rounds through it. I only needed to adjust the optic a few clicks left to get it on.

    View attachment 222989


    I was at 18 yards because that's where the tall weeds end ( I need to mow back there). I still have a bad habit of closing my left eye when shooting unless I'm shooting around barricades (for some reason I switch to my left eye when shooting on the left side of barricades, but then I close my right) and found myself doing it today.

    View attachment 222990
    Nice group.
    One of my hangups is closing my left eye, especially under time pressure. Casual fire not so much. Trying to train out of that.
     

    gregkl

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    33   0   0
    Apr 8, 2012
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    I'm still pretty old school with the "run the trigger that came in the gun" stuff. My reasoning is slightly different as all my handguns are either issued or get carried off duty and I make it a point to not swap out any internals. I'm used to the Glock trigger (since it is all I've carried in the last 19 years) and don't have an issue with it at all. I'm going to guess that if I swapped out one of my triggers, I'd hate all the stock ones, so I'm not going to put myself through that,
    I understand that. That was the main reason I never did anything to my 2.0 Compact. I was thinking I would carry it. But now that it is relegated as a range gun only, I'm okay with changing out the trigger.

    T
     

    Route 45

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    92   0   0
    Dec 5, 2015
    14,884
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    Indy
    Well, after trying optics on 2 different pistols, I'm just not a fan. It's going to be irons for me until I need lasik. Then I'll get lasik. Been shooting iron night sights, primarily Trijicon HDs, for about as long as night sights have been out. Hard to undo what feels natural to me.

    Over several hundred rounds, I was faster and more accurate with irons at 10 yards and in (realistic typical pistol combat distance) as opposed to the dot. Just slightly more accurate at 25 yards with the dot, but not enough to override the fact that the typical defensive encounter is within the bad breath to 7 yard range.

    The only reason I even considered a dot was because my night sights are a little fuzzy at night when I don't have my contact lenses in. I was only trying one out for possible use on my Glock 34 nightstand gun. There's more than one way to skin a cat, though. One Holosun SCS on its way back to Amazon. When that refund hits my account, one Streamlight TLR-2 HL-G (high lumen/green laser) on its way. Now that's a dot that I won't have to peer through a little window to find.
     

    NoSaintJoe

    shooter
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    0   0   0
    Sep 22, 2022
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    Elkhart
    I’ve never gotten used to the “red dot wander” of trying to find the dot on draw.
    I know it’s just practice, but I put it on the level of going from a 1911 to the Beretta in ‘86 and getting used to the trigger action.
    you have to commit to it, and I still like my sights on other guns.
     

    DadSmith

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    1   0   0
    Oct 21, 2018
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    Ripley County
    I’ve never gotten used to the “red dot wander” of trying to find the dot on draw.
    I know it’s just practice, but I put it on the level of going from a 1911 to the Beretta in ‘86 and getting used to the trigger action.
    you have to commit to it, and I still like my sights on other guns.
    I am going to do just that with a dedicated pistol.
    I had one on my CZ P10F, but I was way faster with iron sights. I didn't want a rds on my edc at least until I am good with it.
    So thr incoming Dagger FS will fill that practice role while putting the Dagger through its paces so to speak.
     

    Claymore1702

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    Aug 27, 2022
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    Fort Wayne
    All of my future semi auto pistol purchases will be optic ready if there is even a chance I would carry them. My EDC has a dot on it and I don't plan on going back to irons only.

    I had the slide of my VP9 milled for the optic and that process was expensive and took a lot of time as there are only a few places that would do the milling.

    For range only guns the option to add an optic is less important.

    All that said, I am a defensive minded pistol shooter, not a collector. Obviously there are some collectible guns that I would consider a crime to put a dot on, but I wouldn't be carrying those anyway.
    I`ve heard a lot of knowledgeable people comment that laser sights ruin good shooting form. I`m far from expert, but would tend to take their concerns to heart. As far as the other sights, primarily, defensive handguns are very short range weapons. I have had night-sights installed on my Glock .45`s, and have considered installing night-sights on my Colt Python, but for my Glock 42, (the Glock .380), I don`t feel compelled to put night sights on such an obviously close-range sidearm. I know that everyone`s situations, circumstances, and thinking compel them to do different things. Personally, I would strongly consider the opinions of proven gunfight experts, but, as much as anything, I would go by each individuals gut-instincts.
    May I please share some thoughts on night sights. I believe that they are mostly unnecessary. We must positively identify anything we are shooting at. If there is enough light for that, then there is generally enough to see the sights. I do recomend high visibilty paint, etc. But for the sights to provide their own light source is not needed. Honestly, the most I have used the sights for is to locate the pistol on the night stand. And just FYI, I am a full time LEO. 400+ member department, 3rd shift with 22 years on and on the tactical team. I also serve in the Infantry.
    The biggest reason to invest in night sights is durability. They are just made stronger and last longer than alot of the non tritium sights.
    The fibre optic ones are okay, but I am amazed at how many times I have had students' guns have the fibre optic core fall out. Just my humble opinion.
     

    Claymore1702

    Plinker
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    Aug 27, 2022
    17
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    Fort Wayne
    I wonder h
    I am going to do just that with a dedicated pistol.
    I had one on my CZ P10F, but I was way faster with iron sights. I didn't want a rds on my edc at least until I am good with it.
    So thr incoming Dagger FS will fill that practice role while putting the Dagger through its paces so to speak.
    I wonder how many thousands of presentations it will take me to get competant with the RDS??? I am old and the learning curve is steep for me.
     

    DadSmith

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    Oct 21, 2018
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    I wonder h

    I wonder how many thousands of presentations it will take me to get competant with the RDS??? I am old and the learning curve is steep for me.
    I'm going to do a lot of practice reps and dry fire drawing from the holster. I learned how to shoot irons that way also. It takes a lot of reps and will power. However, if I set my mind to it I'll get it done. It may not be as fast as it was when I was younger, but it should come around.
     
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