Carrying in Broad Ripple (Indy), GIMP Encounter

[indyninja]

I would let loose as well after pages of cop bashing. wtf do you think is going to happen eventually when you OC all over the place. We wouldn't be having this conversation if the op has simply concealed his weapon

I think metro40 had good intentions when making his post, but he let loose with some condescending remarks that totally screwed it up. Maybe he would like to have them back?

 

[rhino]

...if Kirk's story is accurate, the officer is wrong.

Let's put this "if Kirk's story is accurate" crap to rest for good.

You can be as sarcastic and condescending as you want within whatever boundaries Fenway allows. I don't care about that, as I generally consider both the context and the source.

I do care when people imply that Kirk isn't reporting his encounter truthfully and accurately, which you've done at least twice and at least one other self-identified cop did previously.

His character and veracity are above reproach.

 

[AFA1CY]

Metro 40

Just a little bit of background. The (G)IMP label was first introduced by an IPD officer on the GlockTalk forum. Initially the "slur" was reflective of the Peterson administration and the the poorly "planned" merger. While I do not defend Mr. Freeman esq., and the monicker probably should fade away, I thought you should know the source.

BTW
I have the highest regard for IMPD (formally IPD) and my late father was an IPD officer.

 

[indyninja]

how would these self identified cops know that kirks story is accurate? 2 sides to every story. It would be nice to hear from the cop if he was a member here.

Let's put this "if Kirk's story is accurate" crap to rest for good.

You can be as sarcastic and condescending as you want within whatever boundaries Fenway allows. I don't care about that, as I generally consider both the context and the source.

I do care when people imply that Kirk isn't reporting his encounter truthfully and accurately, which you've done at least twice and at least one other self-identified cop did previously.

His character and veracity are above reproach.

 

[bwframe]

We wouldn't be having this conversation if the op has simply concealed his weapon

You are correct. If you have ever read any of my posts regarding OC vs CC, you would know that I am strongly in favor of CC. However, that is not the issue here.

The OP was within the law and the officer was reported to have run him through the mill for no cause. You are correct also in stating there are two sides to every story. You, and anyone else, are just speculating without the collaboration of the officer involved.

 

[Metro 40]

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[dburkhead]

I agree with your post. My point isn't that this officer is right....if Kirk's story is accurate, the officer is wrong. The POINT is, the best action is to notify the officer's supervisor, so that appropriate action can be taken.

My interactions with law enforcement have been rather limited but, on average, they have been very negative. Back shortly after my son was born my wife had some serious post-partum problems and was, at one point accusing me of everything up to the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (she's Japanese). She would swiftly recover and be all apologetic, but one day she went a bit too far in her accusations and called the police. Now, I was told by the police that Indiana has a law where if the police are called out on a domestic dispute and find marks or other physical evidence of "violence" on one of the individuals they are required to arrest the other person. My wife has a condition known as dermographia, which means that even very modest forces (example the doctor used to demonstrate it was lightly drawing a pen along her arm) make red marks on the skin. I had attempted, gently, to retrain the worst of her outburst but.... End result was that I was arrested (charges dropped when the full story came out, but not before I spent about 30 hours in the city/county lockup). The sherrif's deputy that arrested me was pretty good actually, calming and reassuring to a terrified individual (yours truly). The folk at the lockup were a different story:

- Shortly after being checked in, they moved me and a group of others from the small holding cell near the entrance (where they ran me through a metal detector and fingerprinted me) to a larger one in the back (where I was told what initial bail would be and given a "no contact" order regarding my wife). While I was back there, I saw the guard who took us back there tell a private investigator (that identity came from overhearing the guard saying that to someone else) who had accompanied us back there for some reason go back to the front. Very shortly thereafter one of the other guards came back with the PI in a "come along" hold. When the PI protested that the first guard told him to go up front, the second asked the first if that was the case and the first looked at the second with a straight face and lied through his teeth: "No." (I had sat there and watched him tell the guy to go up front and then sat there and watched him lie. OTOH, given my situation, I wasn't going to speak up.)

- Some time later I was moved from a lockup upstairs to one downstairs (I guess preliminary to moving me to the jail proper). In the downstairs cell, I was given a thin blanket (which I used as a pillow--I was dressed warmly enough). By that time, I had been awake for close to 48 hours (stress and discomfort) so I finally drifted off to sleep. Well, my boss had posted bail for me and the paperwork had finally worked its way down while I was sleeping. Apparently, the first time they called my name I didn't wake up (like I said, close to 48 hours before I finally slept) and (again, apparently, somebody told me that's what they did) they went calling at a number of different cells before coming back to the one where I was and this time I woke. Well, after a big grilling about what I was doing on the assumption that I was playing some kind of prank on them, as if I'd choose to stay there when I had a chance to get out, the guard responsible for these "out processings" sent me back into another cell--this one with no cushions and no blankets, just the bare steel beds--and told me that everyone else would be gone before he released me. And, as it was, several groups were called out of the cells and processed out before they finally cut me loose.

- On a separate issue, my wife received threats and verbally abusive treatement from a police officer or sherrifs deputy (don't remember which at this late date) at a traffic stop.

Now, I try to remember that these incidents are the exception, not the rule. The guards certainly have to deal with a pretty scummy group on a regular basis, but that does not excuse them forgetting that not everybody in the lockup is actually guilty of anything and, as much as they may think otherwise, they don't always know which is which.

When you add in that there have certainly been cases of "circling the wagons" where the treatment of accusations of impropriety by an officer of the law is treated less as a case to be investigated and judged on its own merits and more on the basis of "us vs. them."

It's a natural human reaction, but one that needs to be guarded against. Neither side is guiltless. However, as the saying goes "with great power goes great responsibility." The police have more power than I do. That's a simple fact. That means they have to take more responsibility in dealing with those kinds of issues.

 

[dburkhead]

Unless you were WITH him on the day in question, you don't really know what happened, either.

There are lies, damn lies, statistics, and the real topper "honest eye-witness testimony." Any report by anyone no matter how "honest" is going to be a mishmash of what they saw and heard, what they thought they saw and heard, and what their mind filled in as logical necessity to connect the two, all inextricably intermixed as a "true memory."

That's not a criticism of anybody. It's just the way the human mind works.

 

[Metro 40]

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[dburkhead]

+1

And I'm sorry to hear of your ordeal with your wife and jail. I hope things are going better for you now.

It was 6 years ago. Different set of problems now.

My point was that a lot of people with my experience (and don't think I'm unique by a long shot) would be very down on the police, and have some justification for their position. (Overgeneralized, perhaps, but not entirely unjustified). When you add in the larger, organizational, abuses that folk in the "gun community" hear a lot about, I'm sure you can see that, yeah, it's a tough row to hoe to present a more reasoned side.

 

[ryanmercer]

Metro 40

Just a little bit of background. The (G)IMP label was first introduced by an IPD officer on the GlockTalk forum. Initially the "slur" was reflective of the Peterson administration and the the poorly "planned" merger. While I do not defend Mr. Freeman esq., and the monicker probably should fade away, I thought you should know the source.

BTW
I have the highest regard for IMPD (formally IPD) and my late father was an IPD officer.

Yeah this whole GIMP thing just rubs me wrong, and I'm not a leo. I think it's rude and disrespectful, but haven't wanted to chime in on it as it appears this thread is full of bickering children.

 

[Metro 40]

.

 

[ryanmercer]

Hey, dammit....It's MY turn to be condescending.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

And unlike a civilian, who is deserving of sympathy and concern when possibly battling depression, this "gimp" is deserving of only scorn and ridicule, since he's not really human, as evidenced by the badge.

Officer, as you know from your reading of my initial post, I am not angry at the gimp (sic) (I like your way better, all lower case) personally or hold anything against all gimps. I know GIMP is a big department with many different individuals.

I DO resent being yelled at, having a pistol pointed at me, being spit on, and treated as if I was doing something wrong. You will note that I have not and will not reveal the gimp's name or tell of his background that I received from the countergirl as I do not believe repeating hearsay is the proper thing to do.

My problem is with the incessant name-calling by Kirk. Seven pages of "gimp gimp gimp" gets old rather quickly. There is no "greater" Indianapolis Metro Police department. The term "gimp" is a slur for a handicapped individual, or what used to be called a "cripple."

You do realize that the appellation "GIMP" (I prefer your "gimp") comes from one of your fellow officers, right? It is a name one of your own decided to call you, not me.

While we still live in the USA (at least until January 20, 2009), I will call IMPD whatever I choose. Of course, I did not call Officer Cowboy "gimp" as the steam was whistling out his ears and his face was becoming a stop sign.

One last thing, and don't take this the wrong way, but if the situation were reversed would the LEO in question take ignorance of the law as an excuse? Perhaps this is one of the things that irritated Kirk, I don't know.

You nailed it, js. Every day I have to deal with LEOs pulling on their lapels bloviating about "ignorance of the law" or "the law's the law" and then I run into Officer Cowboy who wants to stop me for obeying the law.

Metro, you have a point in that maybe Officer Cowboy had plum assignments hassling Seth and Jared on Broad Ripple Avenue and had never seen a pistol, other than his fellow gimps, carried openly. It's time that that changes.

I repeat the "I am not impressed" statement of Officer Cowboy because, 1. it happened, 2. it makes no sense. As rhino said to me, it is like arguing with your dad and he bring up something that happened during the Carter Administration or some other immaterial points.

For those that ask "why not just conceal, you uppity serf"? I won't be bullied into giving up any civil right.

I was not looking to "make a statement"; I merely walked across the street and I just wanted coffee for me and my friend. I was breaking no law, I was not hurting or endangering a single soul and I was confined and detained without cause.

I was not looking to become Rosa Parks (why didn't she just sit where she was told) of Broad Ripple, but apparently I have done so. I post this so others in IGO will know of potential problems and the work we have to do to educate government employees about our civil rights.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I think it is important to repeat that I was breaking no law, no felony, no misdemeanor, no infraction, no city ordinance was being violated. Heck, I even parked legally on 54th Street.

I am not here complaining about being pulled over for speeding or an expired plate. I WAS DOING NOTHING ILLEGAL AND I WAS STOPPED FOR EXERCISING A CIVIL RIGHT.

Take everything in my initial post that can be labelled subjective or argumentative and discard it (GIMP, the cop not underestanding the operation of a 1911, the cop's rage, inter alia) and you are still left with IMPD performing stops on citizens that obey the law. IMPD is stopping the law-abiding and washing off the blood on the sidewalk on 24th and New Jersey after yet another Indy homicide. We have a problem.

Most of the whining about police conduct that guys like Metro hear about is involved with somebody doing something wrong, such as speeding or Public Intox, inter alia. However, I was completely blameless.

When you realize that I, unlike Rosa Parks, was doing absolutely nothing that would warrant any attention from the government and yet three (3) police officers were committed to stop and detain me, it shows the depth of ignorance of our civil rights and how much work we have ahead of us.

 

[mospeada]

Rosa, er Kirk, it is obvious that you feel strongly about this and I don't see anywhere where anyone said you were doing something illegal. I think most folks have a problem with your tone towards officers, specifically IMPD. Labeling them as GIMPs is disrespectful and childish and I really couldn't care less that the term was coined by an IMPD officer. You expect an IMPD officer to treat you with utmost respect and yet you come here and **** all over them, I'm a big believer in karma and likely it caught up to you in Broad Ripple.

 

[Crystalship1]

WTF is your problem? when have I ever "cop bashed"? Please link to an actual thread and post.

Actually.... I owe you an apology. I got you and another member here mixed-up on the cop-bashing thing. You two have similar political ideologies and that's where I made my mistake. On examining your posts the only real issue that you and I strongly disagree about is about voting for a third party.

I see you're even an XD fan!!!

So..... I was wrong about the cop-bashing label and I DO APOLOGIZE for that!!!!

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I don't see anywhere where anyone said you were doing something illegal.

Then why stop me? It is vital to repeat this as most interaction between police and the citizenry is where the citizen is being stopped for any number of traffic infractions or the like. I was doing nothing illegal.

I think most folks have a problem with your tone towards officers, specifically IMPD.

My tone? My tone was nothing but respectful. Indeed, I even said "please" when the gimp was rotating my pistol around and pointing it at my leg.

After I was subject to an unlawful stop, detention and conversion of my property, I waved good-bye and wished them a good day.

How was my tone at issue? Was my tone illegal in any way? Did I "cop" an attitude or did I have an attitude "copped" at me?

Labeling them as GIMPs is disrespectful

Maybe so, so is stopping someone without cause, converting his property, yelling and drenching them with spittle. Words will never harm me? What is your point?

I think most police officers are big enough boys and girls that they can handle a little snark. BTW, as I've said before, GIMP was not used on 54th street.

I get to be as disrespectful as I darn well please, or as the moderators allow me. At very least, I get to speak my mind and cry out against this abusive violation of my civil rights.

Perhaps I am uppity and I should just shuffle about and get back in line.

Not gonna happen.

You expect an IMPD officer to treat you with utmost respect

No, I expect an IMPD officer to observe the obvious--I was obeying the law and he had no cause to stop me. He could have called me any number of names as I walked out of the coffee shop and I would have smiled and wished him well (in fact after he subjected me to all of that, I did smile and wish him a good day).

In fact, as you know from reading my initial post, he did try to insult me as he was walking back across 54th Street, calling me a "cowboy". And I don't even own a big, silly hat or leather chaps (well, that you know about).

 

[bigcraig]

Givem' hell Kirk!!

 

[slow1911s]

I endeavor to educate the officers I work with about the laws regarding firearms in our fine state, but being human, they sometimes forget whether open carry is legal or not. We deal with a LOT of different laws, covering a vast amount of different situations. Open carry is very uncommon in the metro area. Especially in Broad Ripple, from what I hear. Hence the unfamiliarity.

Ignorantia juris non excusat

Or, to quote the White Stripes "...you can't be a pimp and a prostitute, too."

BTW - I think we all know those activities are both illegal.

And...

A portion of the Indiana Code governing state and local
government administration provides that “every officer and every deputy, before entering on the officer’s or deputy’s official duties, shall take an oath to support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of Indiana, and that the officer or deputy will faithfully discharge the duties of such office.” Ind. Code Ann. § 5-4-1-1(a)