Pointing “guns” at other people is not always inherently wrong… even outside of

[rhino]

Granted I have never had FoF training, yet. But is it normal procedure for a FoF instructor to be carrying a live loaded pistol while teaching the FoF class?

Personally I find that moronic and retarded.

It depends on the situation. I've never participated in force-on-force training where there wasn't at least one person in the room the room who remained armed for security. The key is, that person never participates in the scenarios. Anyone who participates in the scenarios removes all their gear and gets patted down, including the instructor(s).

 

[hornadylnl]

I have no idea what you are talking about. Jeff Cooper plainly states the caveats to Rule 1.

I have a problem, and this is just me and my stinky opinion, with teaching the caveats to children. I think it is unhelpful to them.

And I would not let kids do force on force but I understand this is a call that the parent must make.



Really? Well, if it was how they were handled, being swept or such, then maybe an issue, but the Four Rules applies to handling not display.



No expert, but I would ensure that it is empty, by sight and feel, lock it open and look down the barrel. A bore light might be useful to you.

So the 4 rules crowd can't even agree on what the caveats are. Interesting.

As for the garand rifling check, the steps you describe aren't disassembly. By previous posts in this thread, disassembly is the standard. How many 1500 dealers will allow me to remove the trigger assembly, pull the action out of the stock, remove the op rod and remove the bolt? Vinateri couldn't make a field goal in your ever moving goal posts.

 

[Manatee]

Hey Kirk. Having been subjected to a dogpile or two on INGO, I'm gonna lend you my support (for what it's worth), even if I disagree with you here.

[video=youtube_share;_UbFum_5Q7U]http://youtu.be/_UbFum_5Q7U[/video]

 

[Kirk Freeman]

So the 4 rules crowd can't even agree on what the caveats are. Interesting.

The caveats were explained by Jeff Cooper, the guy that codified the Four Rules.

All guns are always loaded. The exception is the one that you have verified is unloaded by sight and touch and that is in your hands. Even if it is unloaded, still bad idea to violate Rule #2 (habituation).

This was explained at Orange Gunsite. Heck, it was explained before there was a Gunsite.

the steps you describe aren't disassembly

Correct. Disassembly if you can is best practice, but you cannot yank the bolt out of certain platforms so Cooper explained the caveat to Rule 1.

Vinateri couldn't make a field goal in your ever moving goal posts.

Moving goal posts? No, some may not understand the Four Rules. Heck, some may not even know who Jeff Cooper is. What am I saying, some think that the Four Rules are "outdated" and to be ubertactical you must renounce them.

Having been subjected to a dogpile or two on INGO,

No dogpile. This is an important discussion to have.

No other issue directly reflects on the gun culture than the safe handling of firearms. It is critically important to have these discussions. The discussion helps all of us.

 

[hornadylnl]

The caveats were explained by Jeff Cooper, the guy that codified the Four Rules.

All guns are always loaded. The exception is the one that you have verified is unloaded by sight and touch and that is in your hands. Even if it is unloaded, still bad idea to violate Rule #2 (habituation).

This was explained at Orange Gunsite. Heck, it was explained before there was a Gunsite.



Correct. Disassembly if you can is best practice, but you cannot yank the bolt out of certain platforms so Cooper explained the caveat to Rule 1.



Moving goal posts? No, some may not understand the Four Rules. Heck, some may not even know who Jeff Cooper is. What am I saying, some think that the Four Rules are "outdated" and to be ubertactical you must renounce them.



No dogpile. This is an important discussion to have.

No other issue directly reflects on the gun culture than the safe handling of firearms. It is critically important to have these discussions. The discussion helps all of us.

And you never mention these caveats when bloviating about 4 rules in accidental discharge or shooting threads. "I bet he thought it was a blue gun!!!!!!!!!!!!!" How does that fit with a caveat? A blue gun is nothing other than a hunk of plastic and yet you treat it exactly as a gun subject to the 4 rules. How much more mechanically inert can you get than a blue gun?

There is nothing wrong with the 4 rules and they're what all gun owners should live by. But to you an others, they're nothing more than a club to beat others about the head.

The 4 rules can't be that simple when the proponents can't seem to agree on what they really are.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

yet you treat it exactly as a gun subject to the 4 rules.

Yes, that is what I do. Habituation. I think it a good idea.

We have had incidents where individuals think that they possess inert pieces of plastic yet they have firearms and kill or injure others.

Everytime someone negligently shoots another, the overall gun culture suffers. A priority as a culture is to address bad gun handling as any group that does not regulate itself will be regulated.

The 4 rules can't be that simple when the proponents can't seem to agree on what they really are.

They are written down for all to see.

It is the application, not the verse.

 

[SERparacord]

Never walk behind me, there will be a gun pointing at you.

 

[hornadylnl]

Yes, that is what I do. Habituation. I think it a good idea.

We have had incidents where individuals think that they possess inert pieces of plastic yet they have firearms and kill or injure others.

Everytime someone negligently shoots another, the overall gun culture suffers. A priority as a culture is to address bad gun handling as any group that does not regulate itself will be regulated.



They are written down for all to see.

It is the application, not the verse.

Again, you brow beaters can't agree on what the 4 rules mean. One says putting a body part in front of a muzzle is only safe if the gun is disassembled. You say it's safe to put your eye in front of the barrel if the bolt is locked to the rear.

I believe this constant brow beating serves to make others unnecessarily fear a tool. If you're scared to death of a gun, is it any wonder Suzy Soccermom is scared?

Stress the caveats. You never do.

 

[hornadylnl]

Never walk behind me, there will be a gun pointing at you.

Shoulder holsters should be banned.

 

[SERparacord]

Shoulder holsters should be banned.

You have been warned.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

You say it's safe to put your eye in front of the barrel if the bolt is locked to the rear.

No, that's not what I said. Jeff Cooper's caveat to Rule #1 was that they weapon must be verified by you to be unloaded and it does not leave your hands.

Unload your M1, ensure that it is empty by sight and touch, lock it back and then inspect the bore.

If I can avoid pointing the weapon at me for cleaning or what have you, then best practice is to avoid that.

Perhaps people just do not understand Cooper's caveats. He never hid them. Perhaps it is like the telephone game as a kid. You say the "chair is red" and by the end of the chain you get "the blue dog jumped over the lazy cat."

I feel that kids should be given definitive rules and should apply to blocks of plastic or slices of cheese.

 

[hornadylnl]

No, that's not what I said. Jeff Cooper's caveat to Rule #1 was that they weapon must be verified by you to be unloaded and it does not leave your hands.

Unload your M1, ensure that it is empty by sight and touch, lock it back and then inspect the bore.

If I can avoid pointing the weapon at me for cleaning or what have you, then best practice is to avoid that.

Perhaps people just do not understand Cooper's caveats. He never hid them. Perhaps it is like the telephone game as a kid. You say the "chair is red" and by the end of the chain you get "the blue dog jumped over the lazy cat."

I feel that kids should be given definitive rules and should apply to blocks of plastic or slices of cheese.

Again, you never state any caveats until called out on your "I bet he thought it was a blue gun!!!!!!!!!!!!!" or "all guns are always loaded!!!!!!!!!!!!" posts. Does your neighbor on the other side of the apartment wall know you cleared it before starting to clean it? I think all people within the maximum effective range of the caliber should have to inspect the unloaded chamber before you can touch it or remove it from your holster.

This thread here is a perfect example of why this 4 rules mantra breeds confusion. Read it all the way through, especially post 49.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...legged-long-eared-draft-animal-gun-store.html

ETA: Kirk, are you for the school suspensions of kids who make pop tart guns?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Again, you never state any caveats until called out on your "I bet he thought it was a blue gun!!!!!!!!!!!!!" or "all guns are always loaded!!!!!!!!!!!!" posts.

The caveats are inherent to the rule.

I guess if one does not know the rules then there is confusion.

This thread here is a perfect example of why this 4 rules mantra breeds confusion.

#49 was a valid question. He did not know the accepted norm for gun handling in a crowded store and no one told him.

How is that a problem with the Four Rules?

You'll note that in that thread I volunteered to do a 1950s era film on how to handle firearms in a gun store. No one has taken me up on my offer or my offer to direct and do casting.

People don't know because no one taught them. It's not the Four Rules thought that someone did not teach them.

ETA: Kirk, are you for the school suspensions of kids who make pop tart guns?

Now you just being silly. Proper punishment is confiscation of the pop tarts, but only if blueberry, and a fine glass of ice cold milk, a toaster and Irish butter.

 

[SERparacord]

*turns my back to the thread*

 

[spaniel]

Now you just being silly. Proper punishment is confiscation of the pop tarts, but only if blueberry, and a fine glass of ice cold milk, a toaster and Irish butter.

Hmmm...seems like you are habituating them to lenient punishments for pointing gun(-like-objects) at people. Seems only right you throw them in prison like you would if they pointed a real gun at someone. After all, you shouldn't treat the two any differently according to you.

I've seen a lot of dumb arguments on the internet but I think this is right up there at #2.

 

[hornadylnl]

Hmmm...seems like you are habituating them to lenient punishments for pointing gun(-like-objects) at people. Seems only right you throw them in prison like you would if they pointed a real gun at someone. After all, you shouldn't treat the two any differently according to you.

I've seen a lot of dumb arguments on the internet but I think this is right up there at #2.

Yeah, what lesson is learned by the kid if the pop tart is only taken away?

 

[ATM]

They can have my gun-shaped pop tarts when they pry them from my cold dead hands.

MOLON LABE

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Seems only right you throw them in prison like you would if they pointed a real gun at someone. After all, you shouldn't treat the two any differently according to you.

If they are in prison then they cannot bring in more blueberry pop tarts.

 

[hornadylnl]

If they are in prison then they cannot bring in more blueberry pop tarts.

Funny, Kirk. I reread the thread I linked. You had time for snark but not to educate the guy in post 49.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Funny, Kirk. I reread the thread I linked. You had time for snark but not to educate the guy in post 49.

Ummm, I posted in that thread to remind everyone that the Four Rules always apply and that the cultural norm is to point long guns up and short guns down.

I guess I could have told him to ask the counterman what direction was safe and perhaps some do not know to ask.

What else should I have told him, horn?