Pointing “guns” at other people is not always inherently wrong… even outside of

[jbombelli]

Kirk ...

How does one practice force on force if he cannot point at least a non-firearm at another person?

Or is it your position that force on force training is inherently too dangerous.and should not be done?

 

[Bunnykid68]

And are you saying that kids shouldn't be allowed to have dart gun wars, plays cops and robbers or cowboys and indians? How is it that entire generations of kids grew up on such play and still seem capable of handling a real firearm safely?

Those of us that grew up killing each other with imaginary guns and cap guns didnt typically go on shooting sprees 20-30 years ago either

 

[SERparacord]

Those of us that grew up killing each other with imaginary guns and cap guns didnt typically go on shooting sprees 20-30 years ago either

Just watch out for people named Elmer, bunny.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Just watch out for people named Elmer, bunny.

I got big, sharp pointy teeth. I aint skeered

 

[Kirk Freeman]

If the 4 rules crowd practiced what they preach, they're entirely incapable of ever cleaning a gun.

Why wouldn't the crowd disassemble the guns before cleaning?

When people cook, sometimes they get burned or cut themselves with a knife. Therefore, people should never cook.

And when children cook we do not tell them to endanger themselves with the knife or the fire. We do not tell them to set themselves on fire because it is hip and cool.

When we tell them to play the mandolin we do not tell them to use their teeth just to be different and to distinguish our mandolin school from the other 300.

I played miles gear more times than I care to count. All infantry soldiers should be dead according to the rules nazis.

And Uncle Sam had immunity if anything happened and there was plenty of supervision.

Our kids don't have uniforms or badges.

 

[hornadylnl]

Why wouldn't the crowd disassemble the guns before cleaning?



And when children cook we do not tell them to endanger themselves with the knife or the fire. We do not tell them to set themselves on fire because it is hip and cool.

When we tell them to play the mandolin we do not tell them to use their teeth just to be different and to distinguish our mandolin school from the other 300.



And Uncle Sam had immunity if anything happened and there was plenty of supervision.

Our kids don't have uniforms or badges.

Your mantra is failing. You're allowing for exceptions now.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Why wouldn't the crowd disassemble the guns before cleaning?

A disassembled gun is just as much a gun as a cap gun is a gun or a plastic replica is a gun. How exactly to I take apart a bolt gun or inline muzzle loader to clean it? What if I forget that my gun isn't disassembled and shoot myself in the eye next time? Same concept you're telling us in reference to "gun like objects".

Will some people get hurt? Sure. What's the alternative look like, though? I'd hate to see how gun rights are looking in a few generations if we demonize weapons to the point children are taught its too dangerous to play with toy guns.

 

[hornadylnl]

A disassembled gun is just as much a gun as a cap gun is a gun or a plastic replica is a gun. How exactly to I take apart a bolt gun or inline muzzle loader to clean it? What if I forget that my gun isn't disassembled and shoot myself in the eye next time? Same concept you're telling us in reference to "gun like objects".

Will some people get hurt? Sure. What's the alternative look like, though? I'd hate to see how gun rights are looking in a few generations if we demonize weapons to the point children are taught its too dangerous to play with toy guns.

Amazing how this mindset also is supposed to square with the "guns don't kill people, people kill people" mantra.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Your mantra is failing. You're allowing for exceptions now.

Jeff Cooper allowed for exceptions. Don't we have his Four Rules lecture on youtube?

How exactly to I take apart a bolt gun or inline muzzle loader to clean it?

I take the bolt out of the receiver like you are supposed ta.

At 00:50:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw21OWzeomE

What if I forget that my gun isn't disassembled and shoot myself in the eye next time?

I would use my remaining eye to drive to the gun store and sell your Glock.

I'd hate to see how gun rights are looking in a few generations if we demonize weapons to the point children are taught its too dangerous to play with toy guns.

Not advocating that, I think it is important to train the young, not disallow them (teach them to swim, not avoid water). However, I think setting hard and fast rules for kids, especially younger ones, or one who are new to guns if not exposed as grade schoolers, is a must.

 

[jbombelli]

Kirk ...

How does one practice force on force if he cannot point at least a non-firearm at another person?

Or is it your position that force on force training is inherently too dangerous and should not be done?

Maybe someday you'll answer?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I wouldn't let kids do force on force. Childhood should be ingraining the basics of firearms handling until they become automatic.

But then again, that is a call for the parent.

 

[Shay]

Granted I have never had FoF training, yet. But is it normal procedure for a FoF instructor to be carrying a live loaded pistol while teaching the FoF class?

No. But not all schools are strict about insuring that live weapons/ammo are not allowed into the FoF/Combatives environment. The back of the FoF bible (Training at the Speed of Life) is a lengthy appendix of people who have died during non-live fire exercises.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I take the bolt out of the receiver like you are supposed ta.

So if I take the bolt out of a real gun, its fine to point at my own head and I'll be perfectly safe. If I point a plastic thing that looks like a gun at my head, I'll forget and do it with a real gun. I'm sure you can see the parallel between a bolt action rifle with no bolt in it and a Glock with a plastic barrel insert in place of a real barrel, a Simunitions pistol, so I won't belabor the obvious.

 

[jbombelli]

I wouldn't let kids do force on force. Childhood should be ingraining the basics of firearms handling until they become automatic.

But then again, that is a call for the parent.

That didn't really answer my question, but it was a great sidestep...

 

[The Bubba Effect]

We instill in ourselves through culture and practice an extreme aversion to pointing guns at people. We do this because we do not want to accidentally shoot someone.

At odds with this is the reality that we might need to intentionally shoot someone. The current academic and practical school of thought appears to be that we overcome this aversion by simulating intentionally shooting someone.

Kirk's snide comments about the unwashed masses aside, pointing gunlike things at people does serve to break down the aversion against pointing guns at people and simulating shooting people breaks down that aversion also. Simunition training appears to be quite specifically designed to break down that aversion.

Can we break down the wall that prevents us from intentionally shooting the home invader before he beats us senseless and rapes our family without weakening the wall that keeps us from accidentally shooting our three year old daughter in the head?

 

[hornadylnl]

So if I take the bolt out of a real gun, its fine to point at my own head and I'll be perfectly safe. If I point a plastic thing that looks like a gun at my head, I'll forget and do it with a real gun. I'm sure you can see the parallel between a bolt action rifle with no bolt in it and a Glock with a plastic barrel insert in place of a real barrel, a Simunitions pistol, so I won't belabor the obvious.

You're talking to a group of people afraid to go into a gun shop because there are guns in glass cases pointed at their jimmys.

 

[femurphy77]

How does one get shot with a blue gun?

My bad, I thought he said GLUE gun.

 

[247survivalmindset]

As a teacher, I can definitely say there is a point in development where this all changes. Yes, Kirk, at very young ages it is much better to teach hard and fast rules rather than philosophies and soft rules with exemptions. On the other hand, you are going to have to change your course once you give the kid a squirt gun, or when little Jimmy goes to a friends house and plays with one. This is where the problem lies. If all we ever teach them is that you can't point a gun at somebody, when they break that rule and find out nobody died (because it was a squirt gun) they wont know where the limitations are anymore. It's like telling a tanager to never have sex, and never mentioning the existence of protection. Kids break the rules. That's what kids do. At least give them the tools to do so safely. When the time is right of course.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

That didn't really answer my question, but it was a great sidestep

How answering your question, not question your question.

What further do you wish to know?

 

[jbombelli]

How answering your question, not question your question.

What further do you wish to know?

I asked you how a person would do force on force training without pointing at least a non-firearm at another person, and followed that up with a question about whether you consider force on force training to be too dangerous to actually do, and you told me what you wouldn't allow children to do.

How does that answer either of my questions?