Pointing “guns” at other people is not always inherently wrong… even outside of

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  • Kirk Freeman

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    And those certainly don't make your point

    Doesn't make the point that when people point airsoft guns at each other then they do it with real guns??? It makes exactly my point on all four corners.

    "I thought it was a _______."

    The failure count started long before the man was shot

    "But I thought I had a _________."

    Nonsense.

    Common sense. If I go about pointing airsoft and paint pellets at people then I may go about pointing real guns at people.

    Which is it, Kirk? Always bad or acceptable in context with appropriate safety measures taken?

    It is always bad to teach kids to point guns at people.
     

    Rob Pincus

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    It is always bad to teach kids to point guns at people.

    So, Kids who play airsoft, paintball, cops& robbers, etc are just wrong… that's your position? Cool. I find it untenable in the real world.. it is okay that we disagree.

    If you want to play games, if you want to run about and shoot paint pellets at each other, be darn clear about what you are doing and everyone else knows what they are doing.

    Or, maybe it is okay… as long as you do it properly and in the right context?

    Yeah, I like that answer better. I guess you did get the point of the article.

    Good Talk. Thanks! -RJP
     

    wesnellans

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    How does one get shot with a blue gun?
    X-SIX-SCAND-BL-Detail_L.jpg


    Sorry. Had to try to lighten this up a tad. Couldn't resist.

    But I'll be the first to admit that this kind of gaudy stuff makes me a bit uneasy - there needs to be a definitive line between the training stuff and real, and this leaps over it, IMHO.

    I understand both sides of this to an extent, but Kirk's right on this: too many of these people out there have ONLY airsoft or other "non-gun" experience when it comes to firearms, so they don't follow the rules, then "accidents" ("negligents?") happen.

    Education is the key here.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    Yup.

    Sometimes it is airsoft: http://www.jconline.com/article/20090910/NEWS03/909100327/1001/NEWS

    Sometimes police go to prison thinking it is a paint pistol that they have in their hand: Baltimore police training shooting leads to 60 days in prison for officer William S. Kern - Baltimore Sun

    It is habituation. If one is in the habit of pointing non-guns at people then one can point a real gun.

    It's a bad habit that is good to break. If you want to play games, if you want to run about and shoot paint pellets at each other, be darn clear about what you are doing and everyone else knows what they are doing.

    Given the eleventy bajillion of us who played with toy guns growing up and didn't shoot anyone, given the three bajillion of us who are veterans and pointed our actual guns at other soldiers in MILES simulations (or whatever the modern equivalent is where you shoot blanks at your buddies and a laser attachment tells them they are dead), and the thousands of cops who do simunitions, I'm not convinced that a bare fist full of incidents really counts as "case after case". Literally, yes, two cases, one after the other, but the phrase oversells the issue. Also, I'm still waiting on that guy who thought he had a blue gun in his hand.
     

    Kirk Freeman

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    So, Kids who play airsoft, paintball, cops& robbers, etc are just wrong… that's your position? Cool. I find it untenable in the real world.. it is okay that we disagree.

    Wrong? More of a philosophical description. Untrained? Yes.

    The danger lies in the habituation. Children are savages and must be taught. Younger children want hard and fast rules. So you teach them that.

    Literally, yes, two cases, one after the other, but the phrase oversells the issue.

    I only listed two as both had been previously discussed on INGO. One involved a person who thought he had a lump of plastic. The other involved a trainer that thought he had a non-gun.

    We can go and on with instructors who have shot students thinking that they were too cool for the Four Rules, some very high profile and very tragic.

    There are entire blogs devoted to the people that die while having only training guns pointed at them.

    We in the gun culture do not discuss them as they are embarrassing. Perhaps we should.
     
    Last edited:

    jbombelli

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    Kirk ...

    How does one practice force on force if he cannot point at least a non-firearm at another person?

    Or is it your position that force on force training is inherently too dangerous.and should not be done?
     

    bwframe

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    ...I'll be the first to admit this, When i am home alone cleaning my guns, training with my guns, ect. I dont follow the muzzle rules...

    I understand that, but I'm not foolish enough to have ammo near me when I maintain/modify my firearms. Im trying to show the point that we all do it and I will admit that I do it. Admission of guilt is the first step to recovery. When Im home alone I know there will not be any interference in my rhythm and no one to harm. I am bold enough to look down the barrel in this situation. Ooops. Oh well. It's suppose to be a PERSONAL safety thing if your alone. Its a RESPONSIBILITY when others are near. Key word is I am at home, ALONE. I am well aware of the possibilities that could happen, we all should be.

    You are mistaken, my friend. This is not responsible behavior with your firearm.
    This is exactly WHY the four rules were defined. The "four rules don't apply to me, cause I haven't shot myself yet," mentality is exactly what we're fighting here.
     

    Rob Pincus

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    Kirk, I think deep down, you've figured out what I meant and we actually agree. It might be hard to swallow, but your recent posts have convinced me that you realize you jumped the proverbial gun.

    ****

    I think it undermines actual respect for real guns to tell able minded people to treat a hunk of plastic as if it is a deadly weapon as a general rule. Certainly for roleplaying, etc. there are times for that... but to actually tell others to treat it like a real gun all the time? It is EXACTLY THE SAME as a middle school suspending a child for pointing a gun-shaped Pop Tart at another child.

    ***

    BBI,

    Also, I'm still waiting on that guy who thought he had a blue gun in his hand.

    Unfortunately, this does happen. It is a "couple of times a year" event in Force-on-Force Training... almost always by someone who thinks that they can skirt the rules of APPROPRIATELY pointing guns at people in training environments. Just within the last few months, one "instructor" pulled a real gun that he was wearing for some ridiculous bravado ego-driven insecure reason in a FoF Environment and shot a student in the head ... he thought he was pulling a Training Gun and was going to "teach the student a lesson" about using cover. He was a clown in 4 or 5 different ways, just based on the evidence at a great distance. The answer isn't to deny that this stuff happens, the answer, I believe, is hidden in my original essay linked by the OP: Teach the appropriate context for pointing guns at people and hold people to maintaining the proper procedures and understanding the difference between potentially deadly weapons and non-weapons or inert/disabled guns.

    -RJP
     

    hornadylnl

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    Given the eleventy bajillion of us who played with toy guns growing up and didn't shoot anyone, given the three bajillion of us who are veterans and pointed our actual guns at other soldiers in MILES simulations (or whatever the modern equivalent is where you shoot blanks at your buddies and a laser attachment tells them they are dead), and the thousands of cops who do simunitions, I'm not convinced that a bare fist full of incidents really counts as "case after case". Literally, yes, two cases, one after the other, but the phrase oversells the issue. Also, I'm still waiting on that guy who thought he had a blue gun in his hand.

    This whole argument is do as I say, not as I do. If the 4 rules crowd practiced what they preach, they're entirely incapable of ever cleaning a gun. Can't have their hands in front of a muzzle.

    I played miles gear more times than I care to count. All infantry soldiers should be dead according to the rules nazis.
     

    lovemachine

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    Unfortunately, this does happen. It is a "couple of times a year" event in Force-on-Force Training... almost always by someone who thinks that they can skirt the rules of APPROPRIATELY pointing guns at people in training environments. Just within the last few months, one "instructor" pulled a real gun that he was wearing for some ridiculous bravado ego-driven insecure reason in a FoF Environment and shot a student in the head ... he thought he was pulling a Training Gun and was going to "teach the student a lesson" about using cover. He was a clown in 4 or 5 different ways, just based on the evidence at a great distance. The answer isn't to deny that this stuff happens, the answer, I believe, is hidden in my original essay linked by the OP: Teach the appropriate context for pointing guns at people and hold people to maintaining the proper procedures and understanding the difference between potentially deadly weapons and non-weapons or inert/disabled guns.

    -RJP

    Granted I have never had FoF training, yet. But is it normal procedure for a FoF instructor to be carrying a live loaded pistol while teaching the FoF class?

    Personally I find that moronic and retarded.
     

    ol' poke

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    This is an awesome thread - lots to think about and consider. Firearms ownership is a great responsibility folks, and not one to be taken lightly - EVER.

    I've long followed and taught the "4 Rules" regarding firearms, but also have participated in paintball battles.

    I've also 'violated' rules when cleaning my firearms. Can anyone definitely say they have never looked down a barrel after cleaning? Even with the bolt removed or a flashlight shining up through the chamber?

    I know and teach the differences, and accept the responsibility of knowing and following the differences.

    ol' poke.
     

    hornadylnl

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    This is an awesome thread - lots to think about and consider. Firearms ownership is a great responsibility folks, and not one to be taken lightly - EVER.

    I've long followed and taught the "4 Rules" regarding firearms, but also have participated in paintball battles.

    I've also 'violated' rules when cleaning my firearms. Can anyone definitely say they have never looked down a barrel after cleaning? Even with the bolt removed or a flashlight shining up through the chamber?

    I know and teach the differences, and accept the responsibility of knowing and following the differences.

    ol' poke.

    The Internet chest puffers do the same things. But in their internet crusade, they can't make those allowances.
     

    BehindBlueI's

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    The Purdue case did not open for you???

    Only a summary, it says the rest is in a paid article.

    Unfortunately, this does happen. It is a "couple of times a year" event in Force-on-Force Training... almost always by someone who thinks that they can skirt the rules of APPROPRIATELY pointing guns at people in training environments. Just within the last few months, one "instructor" pulled a real gun that he was wearing for some ridiculous bravado ego-driven insecure reason in a FoF Environment and shot a student in the head ... he thought he was pulling a Training Gun and was going to "teach the student a lesson" about using cover. He was a clown in 4 or 5 different ways, just based on the evidence at a great distance. The answer isn't to deny that this stuff happens, the answer, I believe, is hidden in my original essay linked by the OP: Teach the appropriate context for pointing guns at people and hold people to maintaining the proper procedures and understanding the difference between potentially deadly weapons and non-weapons or inert/disabled guns.

    -RJP

    I'm familiar with the incident. We actually had a lecture on it at our own range as a "don't be stupid, this is what happens" lesson. However, when I said "blue gun" I meant the inert chunks of plastic that are substitutes for guns, not simunition guns.

    This thing:

    images
     

    88GT

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    Doesn't make the point that when people point airsoft guns at each other then they do it with real guns??? It makes exactly my point on all four corners.

    "I thought it was a _______."
    No, it doesn't. Because it doesn't give any details. It's about 3 sentences of general information, followed by "Click here to visit our PAID archives." Why do you think I asked for another source/link?



    "But I thought I had a _________."
    So your argument is that because some portion of the population is stupid, all actions committed by that portion of the population are stupid as well? You know what I think? That's stupid.


    Common sense. If I go about pointing airsoft and paint pellets at people then I may go about pointing real guns at people.
    It's not common sense. It's your ridiculous logical fallacy that A can result in B under certain circumstances, and therefore nobody should ever, EVER, do A.

    When people climb ladders, sometimes they fall and get hurt. Therefore, people should never climb ladders.

    When people cook, sometimes they get burned or cut themselves with a knife. Therefore, people should never cook.

    It is always bad to teach kids to point guns at people.
    Who is teaching kids to points firearms at people?

    And are you saying that kids shouldn't be allowed to have dart gun wars, plays cops and robbers or cowboys and indians? How is it that entire generations of kids grew up on such play and still seem capable of handling a real firearm safely? I don't suppose there's another factor involved in these issues that doesn't have as much to do with pointing firearms at people as it does letting stupid people breed.



    The Purdue case did not open for you???
    No, for the third time.
     

    bwframe

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    ...I've also 'violated' rules when cleaning my firearms. Can anyone definitely say they have never looked down a barrel after cleaning? Even with the bolt removed or a flashlight shining up through the chamber?
    ...

    It's not a firearm without the bolt, it's just inert parts. The four rules apply to firearms, not the separate components.
     
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