Whats the stupidest thing you've heard at gun store/range?

[DadSmith]

Watch the video. Bill Wilson explains it.

Bill was allowed to talk about 1 minute out of 19 lol.

So here is what I do to help break in my RIA 10mm. I took the magazine out and worked the slide back and forth fast, but my hand stays with the slide. It probably slows it down some but that 24lb spring brings it back pretty fast even holding on to it. Would that do any damage or do you think by me holding it slows it down enough? I still do that while sitting around doing nothing. I'd say probably manually operated the slide around 500x.
So I need to know is that a hard on it?

 

[nonobaddog]

Watch the video. Bill Wilson explains it.

Bill said -

"When it actually feeds that round, the energy it takes to pull that round out of the magazine and push it on into the chamber, up the feed ramp and into the chamber. That cushions everything. That's what the gun is designed to do. But when you have it dry like this, no mag in it whatever and usually they do a little flippy with it too, you know. I mean all you're doing is damaging your trigger mechanism and damaging your barrel lockup when you do that. And making yourself look like a total and complete amateur. You don't, you don't know how to handle firearms."

To me that does not explain how it damages the trigger mechanism and does not explain how it damages the barrel lockup.
I guess it is easy enough to imagine the pounding could cause damage to the locking mechanism but it looks to me like the trigger/sear/hammer mechanics are all done and stationary when the slide goes forward and are pretty much uninvolved in that whole motion.




I think I will take the springs out of one and manually run the slide forward stripping a round out of a magazine and into the chamber just to see how much energy that really takes.
I have plenty of bolt action guns where those steps are smooth and do not take much energy at all but that is not a fair comparison since they are not 45 Auto, different mags, etc.

 

[BigRed3588]

Could also be from the days of firing pins on the hammers?

This is what I was always told. I’m by no means an expert on revolvers but I have a Model 36 from the 60s and could see excessive dry firing causing damage to the firing pin. It isn’t particularly stout.

 

[nonobaddog]

Some guns are worse than others for this. I think the problem is when the firing pin is too brittle. Sometimes they are manufactured too brittle, like many CZ52 pistols or old revolvers with the pin on the hammer and sometimes they become brittle from work hardening after being fired many times.

Many modern guns are designed to fix this by stopping the shoulder of the firing pin in better ways than just letting it slam against steel.
The Ruger 10/22 doesn't even have a hold open feature after the last shot so they are dry fired many times when the magazine is empty. Supposedly they are built for this. Some modern rimfires can be dry fired because they stop the firing pin without letting it hit the edge of the chamber, however I never seem to know which ones that is so I still never dry fire rimfires without a plastic screw anchor in the chamber.

 

[ditcherman]

Bill said -


To me that does not explain how it damages the trigger mechanism and does not explain how it damages the barrel lockup.
I guess it is easy enough to imagine the pounding could cause damage to the locking mechanism but it looks to me like the trigger/sear/hammer mechanics are all done and stationary when the slide goes forward and are pretty much uninvolved in that whole motion.




I think I will take the springs out of one and manually run the slide forward stripping a round out of a magazine and into the chamber just to see how much energy that really takes.
I have plenty of bolt action guns where those steps are smooth and do not take much energy at all but that is not a fair comparison since they are not 45 Auto, different mags, etc.

On the one hand, Bill Wilson can be trusted.
On the other hand, I like your logic. People say things all the time, that they have come to believe for one reason or another, many times just pulling stuff out of thin air, their brain making the best sense of a thing without the experience needed to arrive at a scientific conclusion. It’s just how we’re wired, to come to the best conclusion we can. But we should be open when new info is presented.

I’ve reached my conclusion by asking, how many times have 1911’s been slammed shut on an empty chamber, and how many times have I heard of a 1911 needing work? Lots, and none. Not very scientific.

 

[Mongo59]

In reality every time you fire or handle a weapon it brings it closer to failure, but are any of us going to live long enough to see it? I would like to have him present a graph or chart with the measured force of closing on an empty chamber vs loading, it can't be much. Is he saying having a 12lbs spring makes the weapon last longer/more accurate than an 18lbs spring. Are factory springs killing the weapon you bought and trusted from a reputable manufacturer?

He has a lot of talking to do to convince me the trigger suffers as the result of anything you do to the slide!

All of this seems to come out of the logic of the soft slided 1911's where they had to re-heat treat them due to excessive wear. If that were the case I would expect to see the slide give way at the slide catch.

This seems trivial to me, what is next holding them up to your forehead when firing to keep the slide from bumping against the stop?

As for me and mine, I plan to continue ruining my 1911's as I see fit even if someone wants to think of me as a noob...

 

[nonobaddog]

On the one hand, Bill Wilson can be trusted.
On the other hand, I like your logic. People say things all the time, that they have come to believe for one reason or another, many times just pulling stuff out of thin air, their brain making the best sense of a thing without the experience needed to arrive at a scientific conclusion. It’s just how we’re wired, to come to the best conclusion we can. But we should be open when new info is presented.

I’ve reached my conclusion by asking, how many times have 1911’s been slammed shut on an empty chamber, and how many times have I heard of a 1911 needing work? Lots, and none. Not very scientific.

Yes. I am not doubting that Bill Wilson can be trusted. I would consider him a qualified expert too. It is just a peeve of mine when an expert "explains" something without really explaining anything. I am not an expert so I have to rely on information from real experts.
Basically he said - it hurts the gun because when you do that it hurts the gun.
That "explanation" leaves me unsatisfied and I would like to know more, especially about how it affects the sear.

Like most people I have heard a long time ago it is not good to slam the slide on an empty 1911 - no real explanation included. I find it pretty easy to avoid doing that for the most part but I would still like to know exactly why and unfortunately this video did nothing to provide that information.

 

[Dean C.]

Now I am interested in hard proof for letting a slide go home on a 1911 , I have heard this many times before and have therefore followed the advice. The explanation I remember is on a well fit 1911 with a tuned sear and hammer the force can eventually mess up the trigger job as well as not being good for the underlug of the barrel.

That being said I keep a 1911 magazine loaded with snap caps for dryfiring them.

 

[DadSmith]

Now I am interested in hard proof for letting a slide go home on a 1911 , I have heard this many times before and have therefore followed the advice. The explanation I remember is on a well fit 1911 with a tuned sear and hammer the force can eventually mess up the trigger job as well as not being good for the underlug of the barrel.

That being said I keep a 1911 magazine loaded with snap caps for dryfiring them.

That's more understandable Dean.
RIA told me I can dry fire my Ultra FS 10MM no snap caps needed. Is that bad advice on their part?

 

[Dean C.]

That's more understandable Dean.
RIA told me I can dry fire my Ultra FS 10MM no snap caps needed. Is that bad advice on their part?

This is just me but if the manufacturer says you are good I would trust them. I am probably just being paranoid but all of my 1911's at this point have fitted tool steel internals and I don't want to chance anything

 

[Mongo59]

"I don't want to make money, I just love to sell guns."

I would look around and say, "Oh, wait a minute, are the lights still on?"

 

[Hulberr]

After reading the comments and watching several videos regarding my post about droping a 1911 slide on an empty chamber. I do admit that the 20+ something clerk's statment did have some merit in regards to higher end production guns with light trigger pulls. So in short, I learned something today.

 

[2tonic]

My on dropping the slide.......
On a rattle trap 1911 I don't see it having much impact, as the fitting is either sloppy or worn already.
Regarding a finely fitted pistol, of the type Bill Wilson, Ed Brown, etc, build (hell, even a high quality production gun like Dan Wesson) I think it's bad practice.
Here's my reasoning: Consider that two of the most finely fitted systems on a 1911 are the barrel hood/slide locking lugs and the hammer hooks/sear.
When chambering a round, the minute friction of the cartridge being stripped, riding up into the chamber, and stopping home, serves to decelerate the slide and reduce its impact. Since the .45 ACP headspaces on the case mouth, the soft brass of the casing can deform, or flex as the mouth hits the end of the chamber, absorbing a little more energy. These forces are considered in the fitment/timing work done by a high end precision pistolsmith. I'm confident we're all aware of how finely the sear and hammer hooks are stoned and smoothed to achieve a "perfect" trigger pull.
When the slide is dropped on an empty chamber there is no deceleration or cushioning of the slide. It slams into the hood/chamber without the benefit of a little soft brass to intervene, chattering (bouncing) against it several times, measured in microseconds. This force is transferred to the link and slide stop, and pushes the hood/slide lugs together slightly out of time. This can increase wear on the sharp edges of the lugs. The slide microscopically hyperextends forward, again due to the absence of an intervening case rim. This change in timing/fitment is obviously miniscule, barely noticeable even, but it is dynamic.
The shock of the slide banging down on an empty chamber also jars the hammer against the sear, again rubbing on each other, however microscopically. This could be causing wear on them equivalent to 5...10...20? pulls of the trigger.
When you consider the possible thousands of dollars spent on a 1911 to reach its acme, why risk accelerated wear degrading performance. YMMV.

 

[jason867]

My on dropping the slide.......
On a rattle trap 1911 I don't see it having much impact, as the fitting is either sloppy or worn already.
Regarding a finely fitted pistol, of the type Bill Wilson, Ed Brown, etc, build (hell, even a high quality production gun like Dan Wesson) I think it's bad practice.
Here's my reasoning: Consider that two of the most finely fitted systems on a 1911 are the barrel hood/slide locking lugs and the hammer hooks/sear.
When chambering a round, the minute friction of the cartridge being stripped, riding up into the chamber, and stopping home, serves to decelerate the slide and reduce its impact. Since the .45 ACP headspaces on the case mouth, the soft brass of the casing can deform, or flex as the mouth hits the end of the chamber, absorbing a little more energy. These forces are considered in the fitment/timing work done by a high end precision pistolsmith. I'm confident we're all aware of how finely the sear and hammer hooks are stoned and smoothed to achieve a "perfect" trigger pull.
When the slide is dropped on an empty chamber there is no deceleration or cushioning of the slide. It slams into the hood/chamber without the benefit of a little soft brass to intervene, chattering (bouncing) against it several times, measured in microseconds. This force is transferred to the link and slide stop, and pushes the hood/slide lugs together slightly out of time. This can increase wear on the sharp edges of the lugs. The slide microscopically hyperextends forward, again due to the absence of an intervening case rim. This change in timing/fitment is obviously miniscule, barely noticeable even, but it is dynamic.
The shock of the slide banging down on an empty chamber also jars the hammer against the sear, again rubbing on each other, however microscopically. This could be causing wear on them equivalent to 5...10...20? pulls of the trigger.
When you consider the possible thousands of dollars spent on a 1911 to reach its acme, why risk accelerated wear degrading performance. YMMV.

I like your explanation and mostly agree with it, but I'd like to nitpick one point that I'm fairly confident with.

I believe you said that the 45acp case mouth stopping on the chamber headspace ledge when the slide fully closes at the last microsecond, would cause the whole shell to act as a small spring, absorbing some of the impact of the slide closing at the very end of the cycle.

If the 1911s headspace is within spec, and the 45acp case is within spec, and the projectile isn't loaded too long, there should be some measurable slack in the headspace on the fully chambered round. In other words, with the slide fully closed, it should be stopped on the barrel itself, and the round having some slight wiggle room in the chamber, between the ledge in the chamber and the breachface in the slide.

Most firearms should have some minimal and measurable headspace, as zero or negative headspace would cause reliability, accuracy, and lockup issues (as would excessive headspace).

At least, this is my understanding, i could be incorrect, i am no expert.

 

[2tonic]

You are correct regarding the final resting place of the cartridge. There is a defined space between the base of the case and the breechface of the slide. However, as it was explained to me, when the case mouth hits the end of the chamber it rebounds back towards the slide a tiny amount which imparts a retarding force on the slide before it pushes the cartridge home.
Perhaps I could have worded it more clearly.
The basic premise is that what appears to be smooth action, or a constant push, is actually a series of impacts decreasing in force and duration, akin to a pingpong ball bouncing on a tabletop.

Sent from my LM-X420 using Tapatalk

 

[Leo]

This is kind of getting off topic, but maybe sometimes other theories are just as right as some expert opinion.

I know every book ever published says the .45 ACP head spaces on the case mouth. I believed it, never had a reason to doubt. I still load ammo withing SAMMI specs. I used to be pretty picky and run every case through a caliper before dropping them on the Dillon.

I took a number of matching cases, and made a couple exactly .898". Then I made a couple shorter, and another couple shorter than that, all the way to about .120" too short. I them loaded my favorite hard ball load, keeping the OAL 1.250 on all rounds. Trip to the range. A plain Springfield 1911 with a stock barrel ran them all fine and there was no degrading of accuracy. How can they depend on case mouth headspace on cases .060", .080", .100" too short?

That makes me say they actually head space on the extractor. Which makes theory about the ammo protecting the pistol during its cycle a lesser theory. I cannot remember the last time I checked a .45 case for length.

 

[binkerton]

Kid at the local RK has been racking em up. So far in the last few weeks I've heard
"With all the problems I've heard about Glocks, I'd never buy one"
"6.5 will just go through (the deer) and keep on going, it just doesn't have the knockdown power. It's not like a .308 or 12ga"
"My cousin still shoots with iron sights @1000 yds and hits dead center, every time."

 

[Itchytriggerfinger]

Ford or Chevy?

 

[Chewie]

Yugo.

 

[Hookeye]

Niva