Whats the stupidest thing you've heard at gun store/range?

[Leo]

Niva

My wife saw those when we took a bike trip to Nova Scotia. She wanted to pick one up on the way back and bring it home. It would have made a nice addition to my Mosin Nagant rifle, revolver, my soviet hip flask and my soviet jump watch (the watch has a habit of stopping for no reason, bad thing for a jump watch) We made a few calls and it is not exactly easy for an American to bring a Russian car from Canada that will not pass epa or dot requirements into the USA. More time and money than we were willing to spend for a Niva.

We still think they are cool little boogers.

 

[Leo]

"My cousin still shoots with iron sights @1000 yds and hits dead center, every time."

I shot the both 1000 yard matches at Camp Perry for 6 or 7 years, Iron sight match. There were some amazing shooters, but dead center every time is pretty special.

And let me guess, his cousin does with a .300 Savage in a model 99 lever action that grandpa gave him.

 

[nonobaddog]

Kid at the local RK has been racking em up. So far in the last few weeks I've heard
"With all the problems I've heard about Glocks, I'd never buy one"
"6.5 will just go through (the deer) and keep on going, it just doesn't have the knockdown power. It's not like a .308 or 12ga"
"My cousin still shoots with iron sights @1000 yds and hits dead center, every time."

I like people like that - so full of **** that they are easy to spot and ignore. It is the ones that are almost believable that are most dangerous.

 

[Hookeye]

Amazing is how folks I never see at the ranges or shops, shoot stuff and drop it dead.

Now I aint anything great shooting or hunting wise, and my critters aint armor plated....but dang if they refuse to read any script.

People using junk equipment and junk science supposedly have way better results than me.

Maybe Im just genetically inferior coming from a well branched family tree

 

[SnoopLoggyDog]

My wife saw those when we took a bike trip to Nova Scotia. She wanted to pick one up on the way back and bring it home. It would have made a nice addition to my Mosin Nagant rifle, revolver, my soviet hip flask and my soviet jump watch (the watch has a habit of stopping for no reason, bad thing for a jump watch) We made a few calls and it is not exactly easy for an American to bring a Russian car from Canada that will not pass epa or dot requirements into the USA. More time and money than we were willing to spend for a Niva.

We still think they are cool little boogers.

I too want an older Lada Niva. Too bad they are not availble in the U.S.

 

[Hookeye]

The factory camo ones look sweet

 

[Mongo59]

Amazing is how folks I never see at the ranges or shops, shoot stuff and drop it dead.

Now I aint anything great shooting or hunting wise, and my critters aint armor plated....but dang if they refuse to read any script.

People using junk equipment and junk science supposedly have way better results than me.

Maybe Im just genetically inferior coming from a well branched family tree

Careful now, my grandmother's maiden name is the same as her married name... lol

 

[Cameramonkey]

Careful now, my grandmother's maiden name is the same as her married name... lol

That is referred to as a "Family Wreath". LOL

 

[IUKalash429]

Can I share another sensory disappointment - stupidest thing I've seen? Recently, at least.

Was just at an outdoor range. Guy a few benches down had a FTF and pointed his handgun straight up in the air, racked the slide while starting to peer into the muzzle. *BANG!* Finger still on the trigger, he shot a round into the air. Lord only knows where that bullet wound up falling.

 

[Ruger_Ronin]

Can I share another sensory disappointment - stupidest thing I've seen? Recently, at least.

Was just at an outdoor range. Guy a few benches down had a FTF and pointed his handgun straight up in the air, racked the slide while starting to peer into the muzzle. *BANG!* Finger still on the trigger, he shot a round into the air. Lord only knows where that bullet wound up falling.

For him that's probably a win. It wasn't his face again.

 

[Kernelkrink]

When a 1911 slide slams forward - how does that affect the sear? If it does that sounds like a design flaw.

On an as-issued 1911, the hammer/sear interface is rather "generous" to allow for safety and long life, 2 things you want in a military handgun. Dropping the slide on an empty chamber does not affect them much and if the trigger pull gets worse with time from battering of the two surfaces, oh well who really cares? Turn it in for repair and draw another one from the Armory.

Sometime along the way shooters discovered you could take that old rattling fires every time when full of mud 1911 and tighten everything up and you actually had a decent target pistol which could be used to some advantage when everyone else was equipped with a revolver. The hammer sear interface was reduced to minimum and stoned and polished to perfection usually with an angle change to make the release easier. Trigger pulls went from 7lbs+ to less than 4 in many cases, sometimes even less. Long and gritty turned into short, smooth, and "glass rod breaking" crispness.

Now what happens when you fire a 1911? On the return forward stroke the recoil spring accelerates the slide from a dead stop. The slide slams forward until the breechface hits the top round in the magazine. This slows the forward velocity slightly as it overcomes the inertia of the cartridge and the friction of it sliding forward in the feed lips. As the round clears the feed lips the nose hits the feed ramp, again slowing things down. The rear of the cartridge slides up the breechface and under the extractor, camming it outward. All this friction further reduces slide velocity. Even more friction as the case scrapes against the chamber wall as it slides in. Finally the slides reaches full forward with bbl lockup and comes to a stop.

Now what happens when you drop the slide on an empty chamber, either by slingshotting or slide release? There is no cartridge and the resulting slowdown of the slide from stripping and feeding it is not there so the slide accelerates to full possible velocity and slams to a sudden stop when the bbl locks up. This does two things to the hammer sear interface. First, when the slide cocks the hammer the hammer is moved further back than when it sits on the sear as it obviously has to clear the sear for it to engage again. Now when the slide is slowed down by feeding a round, when the firing pin stop starts to clear the hammer the hammer is in contact with it and for the slight arc of movement before it engages the sear you essentially have "hammer follow" like sometimes happens when the sear doesn't catch the hammer in a poorly fitted gun.

Most times hammer follow results in a slightly dimpled primer and no bang as the force of the hammer falling is reduced by the slide slowing it down. Think regular claw hammer and a nail, get a good swing on it and even a lightly powered blow will drive a small nail all the way into a 2X4 when it hits. OTOH, take that same hammer, lay it on top of the nail and push as hard as you can and it only goes in a tiny bit. The hammer in your 1911 is doing the same thing, falling forward but instead of hitting a nail (or the firing pin) it is hitting the sear with the hammer hooks. Do it at reduced speed, it has less energy to hit with. Do it at full speed, more energy. A full speed slide drop clears the hammer faster and allows it to slam into the sear harder. Take two pieces of steel and hit them together enough times and you get wear and peening. Hit them harder and it happens sooner.

The second thing that happens is "trigger bounce". There's that inertia thing again. The trigger is free to move back and forth in the frame, held forward by spring tension. Again in an issued gun, considerable spring tension. on the one you just paid more for than a used car? Much less. The slide drops full force and the gun move a bit in your hand from the action, while the trigger being somewhat "independent" of the rest of the gun wants to stay in place. Most custom trigger jobs include the long trigger, so more weight. In some cases, especially with the lighter trigger pulls, the trigger bounces back hard enough to dislodge the sear from the hammer. The old Gold Cup used a rather heavy long steel trigger, they compensated for this by putting a lightening slot in it and added a spring in the sear mechanism. Most custom trigger jobs don't have this.

So what happens when the sear dislodges, full auto? Nope, the half cock notch engages the sear and stops it from firing. On the series 70 guns this is a narrow piece that hits between where the hammer hooks do, on the series 80 guns it's a full width notch. Remember that battering from the tiny bit of arc the hammer moves before the sear catches it as the slide slams forward? Multiply that by ten or so for the half cock notch. How do you eliminate this? When firing the gun, what position is the trigger in? Unless you are Jerry Miculek or the Flash it is held fully rearward by your trigger finger when the slide slams home, safely disconnected from the sear. Also why aftermarket triggers go for light weight as much as possible, less movement for the same force. Many target triggers from the old days would drop to the half cock notch when dropped on an empty chamber, but if the trigger was pulled when doing so the hammer stayed cocked as it should. Fear of lawsuits have likely ensured a gunsmith today makes sure this never happens when a gun leaves his shop.

So not a "design flaw" as originally designed, just an issue that appeared when folks started modifying things from the original design. Military issued 1911, do it any way you want. Custom trigger gun or even a well fitted commercial one? Ease the slide forward or at least pull the trigger when you drop it.

 

[2tonic]

Thank you!
A much clearer and more eloquent version of what I was trying to say in post #253 and #255.

Sent from my LM-X420 using Tapatalk

 

[Dosproduction]

Someone saying they are pro gun so that's why they where pro trump. Lol

 

[Ruger_Ronin]

Someone saying they are pro gun so that's why they where pro trump. Lol

Coherency. That's a word.

 

[nonobaddog]

Now what happens when you fire a 1911? On the return forward stroke the recoil spring accelerates the slide from a dead stop. The slide slams forward until the breechface hits the top round in the magazine. This slows the forward velocity slightly as it overcomes the inertia of the cartridge and the friction of it sliding forward in the feed lips. As the round clears the feed lips the nose hits the feed ramp, again slowing things down. The rear of the cartridge slides up the breechface and under the extractor, camming it outward. All this friction further reduces slide velocity. Even more friction as the case scrapes against the chamber wall as it slides in. Finally the slides reaches full forward with bbl lockup and comes to a stop.

I have trouble believing slamming the slide is as bad for the sear as internet wisdom claims it is.

Basically, in normal operation, there are two potential things that cause the hammer hook to hit (or "batter") the sear
- one is when the slide cycles forward from its rearmost position and the sear catches the hammer hook in the cocked position
- two is when the slide gets all the way forward, it causes barrel lockup and then bangs to a stop. This may or may not cause the trigger hook to bounce on the sear.

On my Gold Cup National Match the slide goes back about 2 inches. From this position it goes forward about 7/8 inch at which point the hammer hook will "slam into the sear". At that point with an empty magazine there is nothing slowing down the slide. However even with a round in the magazine the only thing slowing the slide down is moving the cartridge forward about 1/2 inch. None of the rest of the "slowing down things" like feeding the cartridge into the chamber have happened yet. The hammer hook has already landed on the sear before those other things happen. Remember the hammer hook "batters" the sear not only for a slide slam but every time you fire the pistol too, which typically happens a whole lot more than slamming the slide. Also, due to the geometry of the parts the hammer hook is moving much slower than the slide.

I think just about everybody has pushed a cartridge out of a magazine with their thumb to remove it from the magazine. It does not take very much energy at all to slide the cartridge forward about 1/2 inch. So for case #1 the hammer hook "batters" the sear only slightly less every time you fire the pistol when compared to slamming the slide.

I took the recoil spring out of the same 1911 and put a dead round (230 gr TMJ ball bullet with no powder) in the magazine and then operated the slide by hand. There is some resistance from stripping the round and chambering it but not very much. This would slow the slide somewhat but I think it is frequently overstated on the internet. The spring is strong enough to overcome this resistance so easily that it doesn't make nearly the difference some claim. To be fair - I did this with only one round in the magazine. With more rounds in the magazine there would be more friction on the feed lips. I didn't think to try manually cycling the slide with more rounds in the magazine while I had the spring out.

For case #2 - I don't even know if the hammer hook ever bounces on the sear because of the shock to the firearm as the slide reaches the end of its forward travel. When the magazine is empty people like to use the word "slam". In real life when firing a round the slide also "slams" to a stop. Certainly there is a little more energy in the slam with an empty magazine but the slam when feeding a cartridge is also not very gentle. Yes, the slide is slowed down a little bit but I don't think it is very much. The slide slam when firing a round is covered up by the loud bang and recoil. When there is no round in the magazine you hear the slam and nothing else which makes people think it is really hard and violent. I don't know for sure but personally I doubt if there is enough of a slam either way to cause the hammer hook to bounce on the sear.

I think this whole thing is blown out of proportion but I am sure it will live forever on the internet. However, "just in case", I never let the slide slam forward on an empty magazine. It is pretty easy to avoid.
(I guess I am guilty of doing it with Glocks at gun shows but that is about it.)

 

[fullmetaljesus]

Can I share a perplexing thing I saw at the range on Sunday?



My pals and I were in lanes 2 and 3.

Guy shows up at lane one with two teens.
He removes an AK 47 from his bag at the booth removes the bag. Sets up a target of a bad guy holding a woman hostage.

I just saw the muzzle of the rifle and asked the teen boy "AK?". All proud and smiling he says " yea, it's a custom build"
I moved so I could see it better clearly being a looky loo.

It's a fancy AK prob expensive. All black and tacticool.

Guy shoulders it and goes to work and burns about 10 rounds in one breath.

Pulls the tater back. The only holes in the paper were in the woman. He takes down the target and leaves the booth. I said to him " man you really didn't like her"

He replied something like "yea guess not"

Teen boy steps up the the range does some weird arm stretches. Post up his own target of man and hostage.

He pops off a bunch of rounds completely missing the guys head and gave the guy a holey crown.

He pulls the target down and folds it up on his bag.




What the hell? Was someone going through a rough divorce?

 

[BigRed3588]

Didn’t hear it at a gun store but I once saw someone debate Bill Wilson’s knowledge of 1911 mechanics. That was amusing.

Sorry, I couldn’t help myself lol.

 

[BigRed3588]

Can I share a perplexing thing I saw at the range on Sunday?



My pals and I were in lanes 2 and 3.

Guy shows up at lane one with two teens.
He removes an AK 47 from his bag at the booth removes the bag. Sets up a target of a bad guy holding a woman hostage.

I just saw the muzzle of the rifle and asked the teen boy "AK?". All proud and smiling he says " yea, it's a custom build"
I moved so I could see it better clearly being a looky loo.

It's a fancy AK prob expensive. All black and tacticool.

Guy shoulders it and goes to work and burns about 10 rounds in one breath.

Pulls the tater back. The only holes in the paper were in the woman. He takes down the target and leaves the booth. I said to him " man you really didn't like her"

He replied something like "yea guess not"

Teen boy steps up the the range does some weird arm stretches. Post up his own target of man and hostage.

He pops off a bunch of rounds completely missing the guys head and gave the guy a holey crown.

He pulls the target down and folds it up on his bag.




What the hell? Was someone going through a rough divorce?

Some people just want to show off their toys. Most of the ranges I frequent are between Palm Beach and Deerfield Beach, so there’s no shortage of people with money to burn and zero experience. They can’t hit a damn thing but they make sure everyone sees their gold desert Eagle with custom engraving (the guy was so reckless I packed up early and reported him to the range officer).

My personal favorite was the guy unsuccessfully trying to sight in his SR-15 at about 10 yards. He had the best of just about everything you can mount on an AR, including an IR laser. The range officer was standing behind him just laughing his a** off.

 

[ancjr]

 

[superjoe76]

I was in RK looking fir a box of .380, and the clerk was finishing up a handgun sale. I could not believe my ears when he told the customer “As far as carrying the pistol for protection, you don’t need a license to carry the pistol, but you do if you put bullets in it”

In my "early years" of carrying, I heard someone say you didn't need a permit in Indiana as long as you open carried, you needed one for concealed carry. Thank god I researched that info instead of heeding it.