What do you think about church?

[BE Mike]

We are going to be treading on some personally charged areas here. I am writing from my personal perspective, of my own opinion...I am not trying to offend or belittle anyone. So, here goes.



It is my view that the bible is a work of propaganda, assembled by a group of men for the express purpose of charlatanism. In my world view religion is about control, and Christianity is a nearly perfect vehicle to establish and maintain authoritarian control of a naive or ignorant populace...Islam is a better vehicle for this means, I'd argue, but it had an extra 650 years to mature before its public debut.

In order to be effective, propaganda must reflect reality but also create an irrational desire in the reader's mind for...whatever it is you are selling. The bible mentions real places, people, and possibly events. It also talks about talking snakes, virgins giving birth, and men rising from the dead. Lots of fiction writers base their stories in the "real world", in order for them to be believable...the bible depends on this same obfuscation of reality.



The story of Noah and the flood is ridiculous. It is not supported by geology, biology, or human genetics. The Epic of Gilgamesh is just as ridiculous, impossible in fact. Two similar impossible stories are not evidence the impossible event actually occurred, it is evidence that the stories may be related.



No one thinks Socrates was God...his words carry no more value than we put into them ourselves. The same is not true about the things that Jesus is supposed to have said. People are willing to infringe on other people's lives, liberty and pursuit of happiness because of things they think Jesus said...

...but nobody really knows what Jesus really said; because despite (supposedly) being literate, being God Himself, and being the center of a revolutionary new movement...Neither Jesus Himself nor his actual disciples wrote down his sermons, rituals, or movements as they occurred. Instead we have gospels written decades after the supposed events, by people who were not there themselves. So, instead of a clear concise message from the man himself we are left with a hodge podge of conflicting stories that, to outsiders, paint a picture something like this:

View attachment 41737

The model depicted above has been used successfully by everyone from the Romans to the Mormons to elicit compliance among their citizenry.

This, of course, is my opinion.

Were you able to take the time and view the video of Dr. Voddie Baucham? He answers a lot of your arguments.

 

[Denny347]

Were you able to take the time and view the video of Dr. Voddie Baucham? He answers a lot of your arguments.

Really, I watched much of it. I didn't see any answers.

 

[foszoe]

Really, I watched much of it. I didn't see any answers.

I always wonder if people take the time to read, watch or listen to things posted if the piece is too long.

Here is a link to what I think about Church, especially, the Orthodox Church and it's relationship to other churches. Stated by a much more eloquent speaker. More intended for other believers than the agnostic or atheist as an attempt to put the thread back on track. I am sorry if my desire to reply has angered or offended others reading this thread.

Audio: preferred method http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/hopko/the_one_true_church

Transcript is below the audio link.

For PaulF and Danny, I leave the following to do with what you wish. No one will ever argue another person from unbelief to belief without some measure of willingness to possibly believe in the first place and it is in that spirit that I post the following for those who don't believe.
For Those Seeking To Find God

 

[BE Mike]

Really, I watched much of it. I didn't see any answers.

Maybe if you go back and view it in its entirety you'll get some points that have been discussed, but then again, maybe not. After reading this, I hope I didn't come across as judgmental or haughty. I simply mean that it may give you some answers or it might not. I don't want to hit anybody over the head with the bible. Belief or non-belief is a very personal decision. I don't mean to judge non-believers. Being a non-believer doesn't make you a bad person, and as a matter of fact, you may be a better person than I or others who believe. A lot of people go through life looking for answers. Some find them and some don't. The more I read the bible and attend church, the more relevant the bible seems to me to current life. I have Peace, not the absence of war, but true Peace.

 

[Denny347]

Maybe if you go back and view it in its entirety you'll get some points that have been discussed, but then again, maybe not. After reading this, I hope I didn't come across as judgmental or haughty. I simply mean that it may give you some answers or it might not. I don't want to hit anybody over the head with the bible. Belief or non-belief is a very personal decision. I don't mean to judge non-believers. Being a non-believer doesn't make you a bad person, and as a matter of fact, you may be a better person than I or others who believe. A lot of people go through life looking for answers. Some find them and some don't. The more I read the bible and attend church, the more relevant the bible seems to me to current life. I have Peace, not the absence of war, but true Peace.

You're fine, I understand what you are saying. I watched most of it. His reasoning didn't move me. I am happy that the Bible worked for him, I really am.

 

[caverjamie]

I went to church, then moved and never convinced myself to go again for 13 years. I guess several reasons that included lack of motivation or laziness, deciding which denomination was most appropriate including making sure I didn't stumble into someone's watered down gospel just looking to attract money, fear of the unknown...

After all that time, I started to get a nagging desire to go again. It was kind of strange, but I did a little research, and found what I was looking for. From what I have read, it sounds like there is some interesting archaeological evidence that points to truths in the bible. It seems some scripture has been dated as having been written before "prophetic" items in them came true, such as the book of Daniel. Even rejecting everything in the past, I have to give credit to the creativity of the author of Revelation for imagining things like a future 200 million man army, when that many people didn't even exist on the planet, the ability for the entire world to watch an event at the same time when it happens, the ability to catalog and mark every person on the planet. Once impossible, now possible...but that's a whole other debate...

 

[flightsimmer]

6 The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; yea, I have a goodly
heritage.
Psalms 16:6

How is it with you? What is your lot in life? What will be reported about you
once you are gone? What has been left to you by those who preceded you in
life?All of these questions are the subject of Psalms 16:6
There is a saying that has caught on in the church. Someone will say, "God is
great!" and the response from others will be, "All the time!" And, then, one
will say "All the time:" and the response will be "God is great!" Thus, God is
great all the time and all the time, God is great. Either way it is a true
statement about the church and its heritage of the past, of the present, and of
the future.
When David wrote that the lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places, he was
saying that God had blessed him with a goodly inheritance and great wealth that
he could enjoy to the full. How is it with you? Do you enjoy what has been
passed down from generation to generation in the church? Do you enjoy going to
church? Do you enjoy being the church? Paul reminds us all that we are
building on the foundation that was laid by others. All of the current work we
do for Christ has been preceded by the sacrifices of those who preceded in the
work of the church. We have a goodly heritage to attempt to live up to an to
equal with our own lives. Those who preceded us in the ministry of the cross
and who have kept the faith once delivered to the saints did so because they
wanted to preserve that faith for our generation. Question is, will we keep the
faith and pass it on to the next generation?
Going to church is different than being the church. Those who go to church go
to get but those who are the church go out to give something back to God for all
that God has given to them. How do you see church? Are you a go to getter or
are you a "go-getter" for Christ?
God bless and go and have a great day.

Reprinted from the Daily Manna by Paul Kirby.

 

[SSGSAD]

I am just going to say this : I would rather BELIEVE, and be wrong, than NOT believe, and be wrong .....

YOU, can do what suits YOU !!!!!

 

[steveh_131]

I suspect that if you only 'believe' because you're scared of what will happen if you don't, you've not arrived at true repentance.

 

[jamil]

I am just going to say this : I would rather BELIEVE, and be wrong, than NOT believe, and be wrong .....

YOU, can do what suits YOU !!!!!

I don't find the "just in case" argument all that convincing.

 

[PaulF]

I suspect that if you only 'believe' because you're scared of what will happen if you don't, you've not arrived at true repentance.

I don't find the "just in case" argument all that convincing.

It's called "Pascal's Wager", and it only holds water if you pick the right god, otherwise you just get damned for Idolatry instead of Blasphemy.

Also, does God offer salvation for "faking it"? I would think that He would be able to sniff out insincerity at judgement time.

 

[steveh_131]

Also, does God offer salvation for "faking it"? I would think that He would be able to sniff out insincerity at judgement time.

No, of course not. It's silly.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I suspect that if you only 'believe' because you're scared of what will happen if you don't, you've not arrived at true repentance.

I'm not so sure that's what he's saying. I could see how one might take that just at the surface. You're right. If you're going through motions and acting like it, you'll be sorry.

 

[JettaKnight]

I don't find the "just in case" argument all that convincing.

Baptist refer to this as "fire insurance".

 

[indiucky]

Also, does God offer salvation for "faking it"?

I hope so...I never held that against them...I figured they were just trying to make me feel good and....Wait...Nevermind...

 

[flightsimmer]

God is what gives you life, he is life. His Spirit is what gives you life. He "knows" everything about you even before you were born. He knows your thoughts even, but he will not interfere because he has given you free will to make your own choice's.

I have first hand experience with this. I was in a motorcycle accident and died on the street. The paramedics got to me with in minutes because they were just up the street and they revived me and got me to a hospital where emergency surgery was performed.
The next day I awoke to find myself in a hospital bed with staples down my chest.
A nurse came in the room and I asked her if my wife was there and she said there was no one there for me so I asked her to make a call for me and she did.
While I was waiting, a vision appeared before me a told me "You have the victory, the victory is yours" and I thought, victory, what victory? Then it repeated, "You have the victory, the victory is yours" and then faded away. Then I realized it was because I had died and was now still alive.

Yes, I know in whom my faith is fixed and His mercy has set me free.
I know that he will safely keep and His love is sweet to me. Praise God.

Go ahead and doubt, I know better.

 

[PaulF]

God is what gives you life, he is life. His Spirit is what gives you life. He "knows" everything about you even before you were born. He knows your thoughts even, but he will not interfere because he has given you free will to make your own choice's.

I have first hand experience with this. I was in a motorcycle accident and died on the street. The paramedics got to me with in minutes because they were just up the street and they revived me and got me to a hospital where emergency surgery was performed.
The next day I awoke to find myself in a hospital bed with staples down my chest.
A nurse came in the room and I asked her if my wife was there and she said there was no one there for me so I asked her to make a call for me and she did.
While I was waiting, a vision appeared before me a told me "You have the victory, the victory is yours" and I thought, victory, what victory? Then it repeated, "You have the victory, the victory is yours" and then faded away. Then I realized it was because I had died and was now still alive.

Yes, I know in whom my faith is fixed and His mercy has set me free.
I know that he will safely keep and His love is sweet to me. Praise God.

Go ahead and doubt, I know better.

You understand that no one can dispute your personal experiences, right? On top of that, no one is trying to.

Vision, scent, touch, taste, audio...ultimately these are electrical signals interpreted by your brain. What you experienced was real...whether it was put there by God or by a fluke of chemistry is entirely up to your own interpretation.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

You understand that no one can dispute your personal experiences, right? On top of that, no one is trying to.

Vision, scent, touch, taste, audio...ultimately these are electrical signals interpreted by your brain. What you experienced was real...whether it was put there by God or by a fluke of chemistry is entirely up to your own interpretation.

It is certainly something that cannot be tested with our understanding of science. But you might be surprised to find God is probably talking to you too, if only you'd listen.

 

[level.eleven]

You understand that no one can dispute your personal experiences, right? On top of that, no one is trying to.

Vision, scent, touch, taste, audio...ultimately these are electrical signals interpreted by your brain. What you experienced was real...whether it was put there by God or by a fluke of chemistry is entirely up to your own interpretation.

Not really.

Personal exprience is difficult to explain. An equal number of people have seen Mohamded riding a winged horse into the heaveans. Eternal salvation and rewared await. Go figure. Given the choice of virgins or my pets...

All of the science predicts we do not have free will.

 

[flightsimmer]

Mathew 7:6 seems appropriate here.

You will remember you had an opportunity and blew it for all eternity.
There will be weeping and bashing of teeth, but it will not be laid at my feet.