What do you think about church?

[PaulF]

Not really.

Personal exprience is difficult to explain. An equal number of people have seen Mohamded riding a winged horse into the heaveans. Eternal salvation and rewared await. Go figure. Given the choice of virgins or my pets...

All of the science predicts we do not have free will.

I cannot dispute what others have seen...whether it occurred outside their head is another matter entirely.

Free will? This discussion just got meta...

 

[PaulF]

Mathew 7:6 seems appropriate here.

You will remember you had an opportunity and blew it for all eternity.
There will be weeping and bashing of teeth, but it will not be laid at my feet.

A god that would impose infinite consequences for finite deeds is not worth my fear, much less my worship. As for eternal reward, mine will be the same as yours...corporeal decay.

 

[ghitch75]

[h=1]What do you think about church?[/h]
my church is the center of my property.......

 

[level.eleven]

I cannot dispute what others have seen...whether it occurred outside their head is another matter entirely.

Free will? This discussion just got meta...

Meta?

In the form of a linguistic prefix?

I don't understand.

Faith relies upon free will.

We don't have free will.

 

[PaulF]

Meta?

In the form of a linguistic prefix?

I don't understand.

Faith relies upon free will.

We don't have free will.

The point I am trying to make is this is where the conversation usually turns into a battle of semantics. (Beyond that, I'm not arguing your point)

 

[level.eleven]

The point I am trying to make is this is where the conversation usually turns into a battle of semantics. (Beyond that, I'm not arguing your point)

You have free will because the boss says so!

That was always my favorite response. I don't agree with it, obviously, but it always produced a smile.

I still don't understand calling something meta.

 

[foszoe]

You have free will because the boss says so!

That was always my favorite response. I don't agree with it, obviously, but it always produced a smile.

I still don't understand calling something meta.

met·a·phys·ics
ˌmedəˈfiziks/
noun
the branch of philosophy that deals with the first principles of things, including abstract concepts such as being, knowing, substance, cause, identity, time, and space.
abstract theory or talk with no basis in reality.
"his concept of society as an organic entity is, for market liberals, simply metaphysics"

 

[historian]

.

 

[level.eleven]

met·a·phys·ics
ˌmedəˈfiziks/
noun
the branch of philosophy that deals with the first principles of things, including abstract concepts such as being, knowing, substance, cause, identity, time, and space.
abstract theory or talk with no basis in reality.
"his concept of society as an organic entity is, for market liberals, simply metaphysics"

Determinism isn't metaphysical. It can be tested.

 

[foszoe]

Determinism isn't metaphysical. It can be tested.

You asked about Meta was in relation to free will. Not sure how we jump to determinism.

Are you a lay psychologist, sociologist or have professional training in human behavior?

 

[findingZzero]

Whatever makes you a better person. I'm for that!

 

[jamil]

Determinism isn't metaphysical. It can be tested.

How far?

 

[cundiff5535]

I did not read all the posts just a few pages and I did not come in to this to debate anyones beliefs, however I will give you all my thoughts on church etc...

I grew up Catholic, I did what my parents told me, I was confirmed, but knew little about the religion or the doctrine in which most churches teach. My parents told me not to ask questions, and to do what traditionally was done within my family. I was a "Chrieaster"... attending church on Christmas and Easter. I literally thought going to heaven but had no real reason why. I basically thought because I was a good person I was doing right. I also thought that anything other than the Catholic religion was kind of strange. I was married in a Catholic church and because of that, the church required me to consistently attend "mass" for roughly a year before they allowed to be married at the church I belonged to/grew up going to.

Once I was married, I stopped going all together... Mainly because I learned a lot about the doctrine of catholicism taught in that year or so leading to my wedding and frankly, I just did not "get it". I started reading the bible and really digesting what was written, I had A LOT more questions... really more than ever. So I started asking priests and family members (again) and I really couldn't get many answers other than its just what you need to do or believe. Now, before any folks in here get all upset, I am not catholic bashing and I can care less what religion you are or what the doctrine of your church says. You do not need to explain why you think your doctrine is correct, that is not the point of the post.

Because I could not put my heart into my faith (had I been anyways), I left the catholic church.

After being married for a few years, and my son was no longer an infant, as a family we decided to "look" for a church. After checking out a few of them, I came across Elevation Church (which is located in Charlotte NC)!! We would watch as a family together from home for about 6 months and during Easter on year, we took a trip out there... it was am amazing family trip! Pastor Steven Furtick told me to find a church near my home and plant my family there. So we did... I can tell you that we have found an amazing church in Orland Park IL (Parkview) and I/we/my family go to church nearly every Sunday... For the fellowship, the worship, and because we genuinely enjoy it. Literally my kids ask to go to church!!... Crazy I know!! I have an open invitation to see the financial books, to see where my money is going... The things that Parkview does is just cool!!

For me, church has grounded me as a person, I have gotten my answers, I have learned what I want out of church, and I have learned a lot about Gods love for all of us... I do not think that you need to "go to church" to have a relationship with Christ, but I think that going definitely allows us to strengthen it. Really, all I care about is one common golden thread among Christians and that is Through Christs blood we are saved... that is it, period, end of the religious debates! If you believe that one thing, we are in line and I welcome you as a brother!

I do want to speak to the comments of churches being filled with hypocrites... Yes, they are... and that is a good thing. God gave humans free will and we all sin. There are no "good" people as we are all filthy rags in His eyes.

See, church is made for a guy like me, someone who is the biggest sinner in the world. God sent his son for me and my sins and for that I have to give him praise. He has and continues to bless me with things I do not deserve, I have gotten breaks that were far more than luck, and for that I have to thank Him. I am always in his favor and 1 hour a week is nothing to dedicate to Him for that.

I have add, please under stand going to heaven has NOTHING to do with being a good person, it has NOTHING to do with what we contribute, and it has NOTHING to do with the things we do or how we treat others. It only has to do with faith in Jesus Christ and The Cross.

I will attest that in "trying" to be a good Christian, doing good, treating folks kindly, etc... should go hand in hand with what I am saying, but like all humans who have free will, I/we will fail every single time, we will fall flat on our faces. Its why Jesus Christ is so important... Its because of my relationship with Christ that I can say, "Oh God, I am sorry, please help me up and be better" and I raise back up and try again. And if that is what is looked at as being hypercritical then so be it... I call that trying and being human, not being a hypocrite.

Anyway, just some insight from my perspective. I hope that some of those who have lost their way do not give up, I pray that those who find church boring to look at other ways to worship. I know that if you do, God will continue to bless you and keep you close to His heart

Just as a last second side note... I will share two of my favorite churches in this country. One is my local Church that is just fantastic... Parkview in Orland Park IL. The other is Elevation Church in Charlotte NC... Both of those Churches exist so that people far from God will be raised to a life in Christ. Both are amazing places and I would entourage everyone to take a look at them!

Both of those churches provide a live stream to their service every Sunday... I would tell those folks who say they think church is boring to check these places out... Its not an "old school" sit, stand, sit, stand, kneel, blah blah blah type of church.


God Bless you guys!

ElevationChurch.org

or

Parkviewchurch.com


I think some of you all may enjoy this!

[video]http://elevationchurch.org/sermons/the-great-emoti-con/[/video]

 

[rambone]

A god that would impose infinite consequences for finite deeds is not worth my fear, much less my worship. As for eternal reward, mine will be the same as yours...corporeal decay.

Human eyes can perceive only finite deeds. But if we have eternal souls, then it logically follows that infinite deeds are possible. The dwellers of Hell continue to hate God forever; their sins are infinite. Infinite sin against an infinitely holy God deserves an infinite punishment. The penalty is just.

 

[jamil]

Whatever makes you a better person. I'm for that!

That's a good philosophy.

 

[jamil]

Human eyes can perceive only finite deeds. But if we have eternal souls, then it logically follows that infinite deeds are possible. The dwellers of Hell continue to hate God forever; their sins are infinite. Infinite sin against an infinitely holy God deserves an infinite punishment. The penalty is just.

That's not logical. You sin for only a lifetime. An unrepentant lifetime of sin is punished for an eternity, presumably kept alive for the purpose of creating a justification for the eternal punishment? Sounds like circular reasoning.

 

[rambone]

That's not logical. You sin for only a lifetime. An unrepentant lifetime of sin is punished for an eternity, presumably kept alive for the purpose of creating a justification for the eternal punishment? Sounds like circular reasoning.

It is illogical to think that people in Hell love God and stop sinning.

 

[jamil]

It is illogical to think that people in Hell love God and stop sinning.

Is it logical to think that perpetuating their sinful state is justification for an eternity of sinfulness?

They live a mortal life of sin. Then they die an earthy death. If the wages of sin is death, okay. Fine. That's fair, I suppose. Whatever their state afther their earthly body dies, Kill 'em. With fire and brimstone even. Maybe let'em gnash their virtual teeth a bit first. But perpetuating their sinfulness as justification for perpetuating their punishment does not make a particularly logical argument for justice.

 

[rambone]

Is it logical to think that perpetuating their sinful state is justification for an eternity of sinfulness?

They live a mortal life of sin. Then they die an earthy death. If the wages of sin is death, okay. Fine. That's fair, I suppose. Whatever their state afther their earthly body dies, Kill 'em. With fire and brimstone even. Maybe let'em gnash their virtual teeth a bit first. But perpetuating their sinfulness as justification for perpetuating their punishment does not make a particularly logical argument for justice.

Your question "is it logical..." presumes that the decision to keep a soul around is determined after mortal death.

Our perpetual existence was fixed the moment God made us in His image -- with an eternal soul. God doesn't annihilate souls. Souls are going to be around forever and subject to His justice system.

With the understanding that we are eternal, there is no irrationality in an eternal justice system.

It might seem more comfortable to believe that we are soulless and nothing we do has any lasting consequences, but that's another religion.

 

[foszoe]

Human eyes can perceive only finite deeds. But if we have eternal souls, then it logically follows that infinite deeds are possible. The dwellers of Hell continue to hate God forever; their sins are infinite. Infinite sin against an infinitely holy God deserves an infinite punishment. The penalty is just.

It may be just but the way you frame it comes more from Anselm than the bible.