Welcome to Revere's Riders

[sloughfoot]

Good luck in your future endeavors. Appleseed provides liability insurance for our club. We will not be inviting your group. Appleseed will always be welcome. It is too bad you cannot reconcile.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Good luck in your future endeavors. Appleseed provides liability insurance for our club. We will not be inviting your group. Appleseed will always be welcome. It is too bad you cannot reconcile.

Wow. So did you mean to come off as a douche? Because ya did. (and the backstory appears to be getting more and more interesting...)

 

[sloughfoot]

I know Dave. I like Dave. I dont know you. If you think your comment will change my mind, you are wrong.

Calling me names does not help your cause.

Good golly.

 

[Woobie]

I know Dave. I like Dave. I dont know you. If you think your comment will change my mind, you are wrong.

Calling me names does not help your cause.

Good golly.

Well, you kinda did show up out of nowhere and drop a big "we will not be inviting you." I can see how someone would take that as an insulting statement. I don't know what history is between you, but I will take your word that you like him. But maybe you can see where the statement was a bit tasteless.

 

[sloughfoot]

I have been an Appleseed instructor since 2004. You say I come out of nowhere? Yeah, I have not been active for a while. I still believe in the program as envisioned by the founder. I am sad that these people could not find a way to work within the Appleseed program.

I am serious. I am sad there is no reconciliation with Appleseed.

As much as I like them as individuals, this offshoot of the Appleseed program will not be invited to our range.

 

[Woobie]

I have been an Appleseed instructor since 2004. You say I come out of nowhere? Yeah, I have not been active for a while. I still believe in the program as envisioned by the founder. I am sad that these people could not find a way to work within the Appleseed program.

I am serious. I am sad there is no reconciliation with Appleseed.

As much as I like them as individuals, this offshoot of the Appleseed program will not be invited to our range.

I did not mean you came out of nowhere in regards to Appleseed. I haven't had the privilege of attending an Appleseed event yet, and I don't know you. But based on every other post you've ever made that I have read, I would like to meet you and talk shooting with you and strike up a friendship. I just meant that your comment in this thread seemed to come out of nowhere, that's all.

 

[Hawkeye]

I did not mean you came out of nowhere in regards to Appleseed. I haven't had the privilege of attending an Appleseed event yet, and I don't know you. But based on every other post you've ever made that I have read, I would like to meet you and talk shooting with you and strike up a friendship. I just meant that your comment in this thread seemed to come out of nowhere, that's all.

I appreciate Sloughfoot's comment. It points out a very practical issue around programs like this - potential liability for the hosting organization. Appleseed provides liability insurance. If Revere's Riders does not, they will have a hard time finding host ranges. That will curtail their ability to provide training.

Personally, I see this as a big loss for Indiana. Apparently our State lost a large number of Appleseed instructors to this schism. This is based on a few posts, and the fact that there are very few Appleseeds scheduled in Indiana for 2015 - way down from the last 2-3 years. Revere's Riders have only added ONE event, and that in December. RR has only FOUR events scheduled for the entire country in the remainder of 2015! I see this schism as a loss to the shooting community in general.

Let's hope the situation improves. I wish both organizations well, but the organizations aren't, or shouldn't be, the focus. We, the shooting, and not-yet-shooting, public are. We are the losers in this.

I don't know what caused the schism. I would like to know and understand it. Not from a "prurient" standpoint, but truly from the standpoint of understanding the issue(s) that caused it.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Well, you kinda did show up out of nowhere and drop a big "we will not be inviting you." I can see how someone would take that as an insulting statement. I don't know what history is between you, but I will take your word that you like him. But maybe you can see where the statement was a bit tasteless.

I did not mean you came out of nowhere in regards to Appleseed. I haven't had the privilege of attending an Appleseed event yet, and I don't know you. But based on every other post you've ever made that I have read, I would like to meet you and talk shooting with you and strike up a friendship. I just meant that your comment in this thread seemed to come out of nowhere, that's all.

This. They announced their program to potential shooters. They werent soliciting sites to train at. No need for the proactive turd in the punchbowl.

And I had no intention of changing your mind. Just pointing out how you sound.

 

[TJ Kackowski]

Good luck in your future endeavors. Appleseed provides liability insurance for our club. We will not be inviting your group. Appleseed will always be welcome. It is too bad you cannot reconcile.

I appreciate Sloughfoot's comment. It points out a very practical issue around programs like this - potential liability for the hosting organization. Appleseed provides liability insurance. If Revere's Riders does not, they will have a hard time finding host ranges. That will curtail their ability to provide training.

Personally, I see this as a big loss for Indiana. Apparently our State lost a large number of Appleseed instructors to this schism. This is based on a few posts, and the fact that there are very few Appleseeds scheduled in Indiana for 2015 - way down from the last 2-3 years. Revere's Riders have only added ONE event, and that in December. RR has only FOUR events scheduled for the entire country in the remainder of 2015! I see this schism as a loss to the shooting community in general.

Let's hope the situation improves. I wish both organizations well, but the organizations aren't, or shouldn't be, the focus. We, the shooting, and not-yet-shooting, public are. We are the losers in this.

I don't know what caused the schism. I would like to know and understand it. Not from a "prurient" standpoint, but truly from the standpoint of understanding the issue(s) that caused it.

First off, Revere’s Riders is a fully insured program. Any range that hosts a RR program will not have any issues in that regard.

Second, RR is just starting up. Allow them some time to develop their program. I think you’ll see that in a year or two, they will have a full schedule of events that encompasses rifles, pistols, and some really good story telling.

Have heart. There is no loss for anybody. Just a minor bump in the road that will quickly be overcome. This sort of thing happens from time to time with an all-volunteer program.

Revere’s Riders will continue to grow and add events to their schedule. Perhaps in time Appleseed will also thrive again in Indiana. Regardless of your feelings toward one program or the other, I hope you’ll give them both a try. Then make your own informed decision on how you want to proceed with your support.

One final comment. If you are already 100% certain that your range will not ever host a Revere's Riders event, please send a PM to yellowhousejake. I'm sure that RR would like to maintain a list of ranges to avoid. No sense wasting anybody's time. On the other hand, if you think your range might be interested in hosting a RR event, please send a PM to yellowhousejake with contact information. Revere's Riders is an all-volunteer organization. The more you're willing to help them, the more they can help you.

 

[Bapak2ja]

Does RR qualify its "graduates" for CMP as Appleseed does? If I want to purchase from CMP or participate in its forums I must qualify as a marksman - at least that is my understanding. If I do RR do I get the same benefit?

i have no dog in this pissing contest between two groups of "patriots" but it does seem surpassing strange that folks committed to the same goals and with the same foundational principles can't find a way to work together rather than compete. Since I am not allowed to know the full story for the separation I have no basis to evaluate the integrity of the new group. Appleseed has a solid rep, so I need a good reason to throw them under the bus.

Overall, this sounds like a traditional Baptist church split where the insubordinate youth pastor walks away and takes the future generation with him. No winners. Just a bunch of folks crowing about how they can do it better, and a bunch more who just walk away from the entire movement. In both scenarios, marksmanship and church, only the enemies of the movement prosper.

Sad, but it really is none of my business. So to both groups, live long and prosper. If either does an event near the Fort, I will be there, giving preference to the cheapest one that fits my schedule. As I said, I have no dog in this hunt. Just sad good folks can't build a united movement.

 

[foszoe]

I took seven new shooters to Apple seeds in Brazil and Nashville last year and all had a great time. They all want to go again this year, but now I am left with trying to explain what is wrong with Appleseed since there are not as many shoots this year to choose from and why there is a new group. Except the reason for the split and the difference in goals, if any, is a well kept secret. I can't do that from silence. The rifleman patch was a clear goal for everyone. We want to offer more classes etc is a nice goal but Appleseed, as I understood it, was history and introducing new shooters to the sport. At this point, Revere sounds like a roving classroom and will tend to attract experienced shooters because EVERY appleseed could incorporate new shooters. With only a limited number of instructors and offering a myriad of classes, I see fewer new shooter activities available. Last year, 4 of the 7 shooters I took bought their first 22. As of now, I can only judge the fruit of the program, and I liked it. If those that moved on want to establish something different i wish them well, but they have also set back 7 new shooters that would have made at least 2 shoots this year and this leaves me disappointed

 

[TJ Kackowski]

I fail to comprehend why anybody needs to know why. Both organizations are fully staffed and operated by volunteers. How and when a person decides to volunteer their time and talents is entirely up to that person. Nothing more needs to be said.

However, if you feel you must offer an explanation, try this … Did you attend school a one-room classroom that had a single teacher presenting all the available instruction? More than likely, you were taught by several different teachers in several different school buildings as you progressed through the education process. Revere’s Riders is nothing more than another opportunity to learn more about the shooting sports. A different teacher in a different building.


Anybody who liked Appleseeds, is going to like Revere’s Riders (assuming you attend with an open mind). RR will be conducting basic rifle events similar to Appleseed events you’ve attended in the past. The big difference is that RR will also be offering a wider variety of rifle and pistol events.

While you wait for Revere’s Riders to ramp up, or for an Appleseed to be scheduled at your favorite range, you can always spend your time dry firing at home. A person proficient in the art of the rifle isn’t made just by attending a few weekend events. They spend hours and hours practicing their trigger control, learning how to quickly acquire NPOA, then how to quickly shift their NPOA, most importantly, they train their bodies how to relax in the various shooting positions.

 

[Bapak2ja]

I fail to comprehend why anybody needs to know why. Both organizations are fully staffed and operated by volunteers. How and when a person decides to volunteer their time and talents is entirely up to that person. Nothing more needs to be said.

However, if you feel you must offer an explanation, try this … Did you attend school a one-room classroom that had a single teacher presenting all the available instruction? More than likely, you were taught by several different teachers in several different school buildings as you progressed through the education process. Revere’s Riders is nothing more than another opportunity to learn more about the shooting sports. A different teacher in a different building.


Anybody who liked Appleseeds, is going to like Revere’s Riders (assuming you attend with an open mind). RR will be conducting basic rifle events similar to Appleseed events you’ve attended in the past. The big difference is that RR will also be offering a wider variety of rifle and pistol events.

While you wait for Revere’s Riders to ramp up, or for an Appleseed to be scheduled at your favorite range, you can always spend your time dry firing at home. A person proficient in the art of the rifle isn’t made just by attending a few weekend events. They spend hours and hours practicing their trigger control, learning how to quickly acquire NPOA, then how to quickly shift their NPOA, most importantly, they train their bodies how to relax in the various shooting positions.

TJ, I appreciate your input, and your confidence in the new organization. I just wish you had stayed with Appleseed. Without any explanation the separation makes as much sense a screen door on a submarine.

Does RR have the connections with CMP that Appleseed has? I find that an important consideration for future purchases.

 

[grunt soldier]

I'm not going to beat around the bush like a lot of the other instructors. I don't hold my tongue as well. The main reason you haven't heard anything about what happened is because ALL of us Indiana instructors still want to see appleseed succeed. We fully believe in and support the mission and we know a lot of people would stop supporting the program if they knew the whole truth. We aren't holding grudges though. we are moving on trying to make a better program one that truly believes in the mission. We don't care how the mission is reached as long as it actually happens whether that is through appleseed or RR or some random unheard of program. I wasn't going to post this but it seems a lot of people are coming to this thread and talking about things that none of you have any idea about. That especially includes you sloughfoot. Sloughfoot you haven't instructed at a appleseed event in years. so you are not a instructor nor have you been for some time. let that go. You were a big proponent for appleseed and 7th stepped on here a lot. I usually agreed with you and your posts but your very off track on this issue. Secondly your knowledge of appleseeds insurance is severely lacking. That was one of the main issues we had with appleseed. the insurance was a joke and covered nothing. Fred or Jack your friend had absolutely no idea about anything in his policy. had no idea what was covered and what wasn't, questions were asked and asked and he couldn't provide a single piece of information about who or what was covered. They told us that they were going to speak with the insurance company and would have all the answers reference our insurance. that was 3 months ago and they still have provided none of the answers. In fact the insurance was so bad the program was actually operating illegally in several states and when that was pointed out those instructors were made inactive to hide the fact. They didn't like the fact that we questioned things that didn't make sense and actually put all instructors personal livelihood in jeopardy if something were to happen at a shoot.

There is a ton more to it than most of you will ever know and believe me it wasn't that the IN instructors weren't doing what needed to be done. I had just shootbossed a sold out shoot in wabash IN. had over 30 shooters and more who wanted to walk on. I 7th stepped daily. I wanted nothing more than for appleseed to succeed that is why I volunteered my time so much. It was not the instructors unwilling to compromise and attempt to make the program a huge success. It was not Indiana. We just ended up being the scape goat because we didn't follow blindly. We wanted more and national was happy with the failing state of the program. As stated below. it's a shame because with the quality of volunteers in the program Appleseed had the ability to be so much more. BUT THAT IS OK BECAUSE RR is going to step up and fill that void. we are going to continue the mission forward where they have sat stagnant. And one last thing Sloughfoot. if you really cared about appleseed and it's mission you would think that you would welcome a program with similar values and goals with open arms vs coming in here and bashing it right off the bat. The mission is the mission. It's not owned by anyone one group.


Appleseed is a great program at it's roots. The volunteers that work for that program are some of the best people you will ever meet. they/ we made the program what it is today. The volunteers still in the program are for the most part great people and are working towards bettering this country. However some people (mostly the higher ups) don't have that goal in mind even if they claim to as they continue to lie and prevent it from actually growing enough to be effective in the mission. and that is a shame because it easily could have been a program that made a big difference.

 

[Brown]

Reveres Riders is CMP affiliated and our training will qualify you for CMP purchases. The slips are being designed now and will be available . We are also NRA, USSA, YSSF, and NSSF affiliated.

 

[brotherbill3]

I'll say this ... Appleseed is a great program ... Revere's Riders looks to be a great program run by great people we "all" know ... room for both? I hope so ... I hope ranges are up for both.

As to why people aren't there (with Appleseed) any longer; I can't answer for everyone, but I'll answer for me.

I just joined the instructor group in March; and helped/worked my first event in April (Patriot's Weekend).
I signed up for several more events this year.
I was asked to make a commitment for a period of time that I could not comfortably or reasonably guarantee I could keep.
Even though I was completely willing to give what time I could, and I am still planning to keep my commitment to the events I signed up for this year.
I stated this as clearly as I could.

When I could not / would not make the commitment the program asked for - I was dismissed from the program (directly).
Am I still committed to the "Mission" of Appleseed? Without A Doubt. But I will support the same mission, via RR, and IMAGC (as it applies).

I have learned a lot from Appleseed. It is a great program; personally I see a benefit to both.
I am still hoping to invite a few folks (notably one's many of us write to in January/February in Indianapolis) to an appleseed (or if available a RR) event.
I am looking forward to helping w/ Revere's Riders too.

 

[TJ Kackowski]

TJ, I appreciate your input, and your confidence in the new organization. I just wish you had stayed with Appleseed. ...

I wish I had been allowed to stay with Appleseed too! Unfortunately, that wasn't my choice. I was deactivated prior to the expiration of the deadline to respond to a roll call.

Truth be told, there's nothing scarier than venturing out into the unknown. Appleseed was the warm fuzzy blanket ... you always knew what to expect. Revere's Riders will unfold and grow into something ... hopefully something wonderful. Based upon my personal knowledge of the people involved with RR, I think the odds are very good that it will soon become another warm fuzzy blanket.

 

[42769vette]

Pat touched on this, but RR, and AS are not in competition. We have different views on how to accomplish the mission, and each group will work at the mission in their own way. Like many other's about a week ago I was dismissed from the program. Yesterday I talked to a customer in California about attending an AS shoot. Its not like I disprove of the AS mission, I disprove of the action's of "the powers that be" inside AS.

Someone above ask about knowing the integrity of the new group. To be honest the new group is all you know right now. Have you ever attended a shoot with Fred working the line? I doubt it. Have you ever attended a shoot with a member of the new group working the line? If you have been to a recent AS then yes you have. You know the integrity of the BOTG, not the AS brand.

@ foszoe, RR did not make the choice to set your group of 7 new shooter's back, AS on a national level made that decision. Very few if any instructor's ask to be removed from the program. Big brother from 1/2 a country away decided it knew what was best for Indiana, and removed us. Your disappointment does not lie with the volunteer's who gave up their weekend to help you, and your group, your disappointment lies with "big brother" who will no longer allow that kind of dedication to happen. I will bet without knowing any more about your situation that your favorite AS instructor (not knowing who that is) is now associated with RR.

 

[42769vette]

I just wish you had stayed with Appleseed.

As Im sure does TJ. TJ was no longer welcome in AS. You dont stick around another mans house after being thrown out.

 

[Bapak2ja]

With information comes understanding. Thanks for providing sufficient info to understand the actions taken. I agree:
1. One does not stay where one has been expelled.
2. The mission is the same, and belongs to the Patriots, the citizens, not the organization.
3. RR is acting in good faith and with cause. (I recognize I have only heard one side of the story, but it makes sense.)

Thanks, too, for the confirmation that RR is CMP approved, and will maintain/establish links with other appropriate organizations.