Vaccine coercion/bribery

[Ingomike]

Yep, that's been my issue for a while now. Even with the low numbers that have already been reported, you have to take it with a grain of salt because we know for a fact the numbers have been inflated. The question is, by how much? Will we ever know?

We will never know because they muddied the water so much one can never see the whole truth, but we see enough to know it is not truth...

 

[jsharmon7]

Maybe we should do the same for people that are overweight?

We’ve known smoking causes cancer for decades. If a smoker shows up with cancer, screw ‘em. Heart blockage from a lifetime of bad diet and being obese? Too bad.

It’s a bad idea no matter how you look at it.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

No, if I say it it will not be hidden from others. Maybe I read it wrong on intent, but it is a gross mischaracterization of the points from those that so not believe the confirmed liars in media, government, and big pharma, concerning the outcome of a virus they never had a clue of and still do not and the pushing of a vaccine, the foundation of which has never been widely used and has so many unknowns.

Why do you believe them?

I absolutely agree with you that there has been mischaracterizations, mis/disinformation, agendas and hype... but I would say that is true from both of the opposing tribes on this whole subject.

Believe the media? Nope. Believe politicians (and Fauci is one)? Nope.

Trustworthy sources are difficult to find, if not impossible. But I can spot BS or just plain uninformed a mile away... for example if some headline is that X people died/had some horrible condition arise within y months of taking a vaccine, BUT don't include what the "normal" rate is... then at best it is uniformed, at worst it is just plain old scaremongering. To date, something like 200 million Americans have had the vaccine within the past 6-7 months. 1000's, 10's of thousands of those people have died or came down with some aweful condition... the question is how many would have "normally" died or become ill? Especially with a vaccinated population that skews heavily elderly?

I first encountered this with the results of the trials... some handful of recipients developed Bell's Palsy during the trial period... I went and looked at Bell's Palsy rates and that was the expected number of incidents for the 20/40,000 adult population in the trial. But that didn't stop some from "screaming" it causes Bell's Palsy. Rinse, repeat.

Yup, the other tribe does use fearmongering... but Mike, I sit here in the middle, a member of neither tribe, and see your tribe use fearmongering over and over.

And, are the COVID case/death numbers accurate to the Nth degree? Nope? Are they imaginary figures that are really just flu deaths? Nope. Who do I trust? A couple medical professionals that I have known since birth and held them when they were mere hours old... who have seen and worked in the COVID ICUs. Who have been present for too many coded COVID patients to count, but can remember each and every one that lived and came off a ventilator.

So, you mischaracterize me by saying I "believe" TPTB... I don't. BUT, that doesn't mean that they aren't occasionally right or are sometimes mostly right. There has also been a lot that they were wrong about, or mostly wrong about. Which tribe am I talking about? Both... IMO.

Anyhow, the post was meant very much along the lines of the debate decades ago, and I was a smoker at the time, now ex-smoker, just how should we feel about, and what should society pay for, when a heavy smoker for decades develops lung cancer.

So, I'll end by rephrasing it as a question... if someone refuses the vaccine, believes COVID is just a cold/flu, but develops a severe case of COVID requiring hospitalization/treatment and/or ICU care... should they go and accept it. Should society (taxpayers and medical health insurance premium payers) be required to pay for that care?

 

[wtburnette]

Far too many people have set logic aside because of all the hype and misinformation put out by the government, Hollyweird and MSM. Add to that many people know someone who has died (almost all over 65 and/or with serious comorbidities) and people have decided to follow the advice of "experts", even with facts showing their lying to us all over the place.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Oh no no do it here I want to hear you defend that stupid crap. Now say if you make any personal choices that involve risk at all no healthcare for you !!! To hell with it by that line of thought we are all on our own. Sheepdogs yeah right. Only until people stop listening.

Me? I did post... and recall the sheepdogs protect their flocks from danger... not pretend the danger, at whatever level, doesn't exist.

 

[wtburnette]

So, I'll end by rephrasing it as a question... if someone refuses the vaccine, believes COVID is just a cold/flu, but develops a severe case of COVID requiring hospitalization/treatment and/or ICU care... should they go and accept it. Should society (taxpayers and medical health insurance premium payers) be required to pay for that care?

Yes, the same as every other illness.

 

[wtburnette]

Me? I did post... and recall the sheepdogs protect their flocks from danger... not pretend the danger, at whatever level, doesn't exist.

Again, I understand what you're trying to say, but you have to stop with the hyperbole. No one has stated the danger doesn't exist, but we want the ability to choose for ourselves whether we take the F'n "vaccine" or not. As adults and especially as American citizens, most of us feel that is our right. None of us, that I've seen, have our heads in the sand saying this is all made up and there is no danger, only that we can decide our risk level and act accordingly.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Just a slight nit to pick here. The 3 major inoculations available in the USA do not contain the spike protein itself, but rather messenger RNA (mRNA) molecules which enter our cells and instruct them to make part of the spike protein that is on the surface of the coronavirus. If this differs in any way from what your friend stated in terms of making ADE less likely, I can't say.

As a nit picker myself, I consider my nit to have been picked!

You are correct... the key point he was making was that since the mRNA/cell generated proteins used to induce the immune response was only part of the spike protein, not the entire protein, it was less likely to generate ADE, if that is even possible with the the COVID-19 virus.

Like I said, right or not, I dunno.

 

[Ingomike]

Again, I understand what you're trying to say, but you have to stop with the hyperbole. No one has stated the danger doesn't exist, but we want the ability to choose for ourselves whether we take the F'n "vaccine" or not. As adults and especially as American citizens, most of us feel that is our right. None of us, that I've seen, have our heads in the sand saying this is all made up and there is no danger, only that we can decide our risk level and act accordingly.

WINNING...

 

[Route 45]

I don't care about someone else.

I believe you.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Maybe we should do the same for people that are overweight?

I've heard some make that same argument, pre-COVID and pre-every size is healthy (woke)... basically the same "brought it on yourself" argument

 

[BugI02]

And then when they were able to get the vaccine they signed up. Why? I really don't understand that.

So they could get their yellow arm band

 

[DoggyDaddy]

I guess this guy should have just blown his nose.

News

www.fox5vegas.com

Was it the delta variant? That's the one that appears to most commonly produce headaches, sore throat and sniffles from what has been posted here, and that's the one to which I was referring.

 

[wtburnette]

I believe you.

I'm sure you do. I'm speaking from a Libertarian perspective, in that I have a right to choose my direction and so does everyone else. If you're fat and that puts you into the crosshairs of COVID (and numerous other health issues), that's your right. Don't expect me to fall all over myself to do something about it though. You're an adult and should know better. I take care of myself, eat as well as I can and exercise when I can. I've given up eating sugar as much as possible and don't add much salt. I also try not to overeat. I'm doing that to be healthier and reduce medical costs. I'm not going to force you to diet or live right, so don't force me to take a "vaccine" that's only around 39% effective "for the public good".

 

[BugI02]

How about this... people that don't "believe" COVID is anything more than the common cold... that don't "believe" in the vaccine(s)... when they show up at the hospital with COVID, we just tell them we don't "believe" that they are sick, just go home?

So let's see - in a free country, you want there to be some official punishment for people who can't be made to agree with you? Did Biden thank you for your vote , yet?

 

[phylodog]

I don’t consider myself to have chosen a side on this issue. I’ve read and seen the information, I continue to monitor the situation and evaluate as much information as I can to reach what I believe to be the right decision for me. I’ve never told anyone to not get the vaccine nor ridiculed anyone for getting it.

Since this is 2021 in the USA and that is no longer enough for many. I now have to be labeled, shamed and condemned by those who aren’t satisfied to leave other people alone. Hell, the POTUS says I’m not as smart as he thought it was. Considering the source I find that to be more entertaining than hurtful but still…

I don’t see fear mongering from “my’ side. I see unanswered questions, misinformation called out as such and a lack of comfort in getting the vaccine. I’ll not be forced into something which is so clearly surrounded by conflicting information, reversal after reversal of the rules and especially that which is being pushed so hard by politicians and the media, neither of which care about me, my personal health or safety. They are after money. Life saving medical developments sell themselves, they don’t require a massive push like this.

All we seem to get for answers to our questions is accused of being anti vax and/or anti government. Neither is the case for most.

 

[BugI02]

I agree with you, Jamil... if someone had symptomatic COVID, it would seem like the vaccine would be superfluous.

One person I know who had COVID and got the vaccine told me the reason he got it was to guard against the possibility of ADE (antibody dependent enhancement)... he said that since the vaccines have only partial spike protein, the theoretical possibility of ADE would be less from the vaccine than the actual infection (they were designed that way on purpose according to him).

No one knows if COVID goes ADE or not, he said the whole cytokine storm version of COVID was reminiscent of a denge/HF ADE scenario to him, so he got it.

It's a thought process that makes some sense... whether right or wrong? No idea.

He's got that pretty much backwards. ADE results from inefficient antibodies that can bind to a virus but not inactivate it. The antibody coating shields the virus somewhat from other aspects of the immune system and the cells that engulf the bound virus, expecting it to be incapacitated, serve as another pathway for viral replication that is underneath the radar

Using only select fragments from the spike protein, as the mRNA vaccine does, is thought to make antibodies that are ineffective against the live virus MORE likely

 

[SheepDog4Life]

If you are using reading comprehension skills at all, you will see that the Delta variant is what people have been referring to when they say it is more like the flu or common cold. If you read the truth about the Delta variant, which is way more contagious but had much more mild symptoms, this makes sense. The gene therapy stuff has already been covered so I won't rehash it.

I've not seen anything that says that... I've seen articles and people doing crude comparisons/calculations of cases/hospitalizations/deaths... but none that do that only for unvaccinated BY AGE DEMOGRAPHICS.

Something like 80-90% of the most at risk, the elderly, are vaccinated and they comprised the majority of the severe/fatal cases prior to the vaccines and delta variant.

Upthread we talked UK data... again, does it have outcomes of Delta by age group versus vanilla COVID?

Again, I understand what you're trying to say, but you have to stop with the hyperbole. No one has stated the danger doesn't exist, but we want the ability to choose for ourselves whether we take the F'n "vaccine" or not. As adults and especially as American citizens, most of us feel that is our right. None of us, that I've seen, have our heads in the sand saying this is all made up and there is no danger, only that we can decide our risk level and act accordingly.

We do and it is... arguing the reasons why the vaccine is a good idea for a some people who haven't taken it IS NOT arguing that they should be forced to do so.

We also have the right to eat ourselves into morbid obesity and smoke ourselves into emphysema and lung cancer... doesn't make a good idea nor mean your "forcing" anyone to do something by arguing against doing those things.

 

[BugI02]

"modification" ?

epigenetic effects count as 'modification'. Methylation patterns are heritable for at least generation or two

 

[phylodog]

Trustworthy sources are difficult to find, if not impossible. But I can spot BS or just plain uninformed a mile away... for example if some headline is that X people died/had some horrible condition arise within y months of taking a vaccine, BUT don't include what the "normal" rate is... then at best it is uniformed, at worst it is just plain old scaremongering. To date, something like 200 million Americans have had the vaccine within the past 6-7 months. 1000's, 10's of thousands of those people have died or came down with some aweful condition... the question is how many would have "normally" died or become ill?

Well, that depends. If we use the calculating methods the CDC and media are using the answer is all of them because in their minds the vaccine is an infallible miracle cure.

So, I'll end by rephrasing it as a question... if someone refuses the vaccine, believes COVID is just a cold/flu, but develops a severe case of COVID requiring hospitalization/treatment and/or ICU care... should they go and accept it. Should society (taxpayers and medical health insurance premium payers) be required to pay for that care?

We’re paying people to sit at home and do nothing, we’re paying for convicted felons to have sex change operations and in some locales we‘re paying criminals if they promise not to be criminals and we’re going to deny people medical treatment because they have a difficult time believing what politicians and the media says?