Vaccine coercion/bribery

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    bobzilla

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    I posted up thread a couple new studies showing that previously infected v patients have the same reinfection rates as the vaccinated. I also posted the study showing that a 2-poke jab can lower the antibody count and lower the effectiveness in those previously infected. Why should those previously infected still get the jab if those two studies are correct?
     

    BugI02

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    And this is what’s happening when you take the vaccine?
    Or is this what happens when you don’t take the vaccine?

    I’m just a dummy trying to understand.
    It is not out of the question if you are unvaccinated, but it has not been notable up until now. It is likely successive variants will evolve towards evading the immune system and a tendency toward ADE could be one method for doing that

    As I understand it, since the vaccine is training your immune system to produce antibodies to a fragment of the spike protein, that this can induce the production of less effective antibodies for actual infections you encounter in the wild which makes ADE more likely

    So ADE is mostly a byproduct of being vaccinated

    I would like to see them make a traditional vaccine from weakened or dead virus in small quantities in order to enable a clinical trial of traditional vaccine efficacy and side effects compared to mRNA vaccine efficacy and side effects
     

    SheepDog4Life

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    This is just one paper on ADE, there are several more on MedRxiv and PubMed. I highlighted RSV because you will no doubt be aware that cases of this infection are beginning to become prevalent out of its traditional season. I also highlighted that cytokine storm is not antibody modulated, it is related to interleukin signaling hierarchies


    One potential hurdle for antibody-based vaccines and therapeutics is the risk of exacerbating COVID-19 severity via antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE). ADE can increase the severity of multiple viral infections, including other respiratory viruses such as respiratory syncytial virus (RSV)9,10 and measles11,12. ADE in respiratory infections is included in a broader category named enhanced respiratory disease (ERD), which also includes non-antibody-based mechanisms such as cytokine cascades and cell-mediated immunopathology (Box 1). ADE caused by enhanced viral replication has been observed for other viruses that infect macrophages, including dengue virus13,14 and feline infectious peritonitis virus (FIPV)15. Furthermore, ADE and ERD has been reported for SARS-CoV and MERS-CoV both in vitro and in vivo. The extent to which ADE contributes to COVID-19 immunopathology is being actively investigated.
    Ok, so a different ADE pathway (ERD)... as I read it, the current theory is this is possible when a second infection (COVID-19) occurs in the presence of high titres of non-neutralizing antibodies, like RSV, already present in the lungs.

    I read elsewhere that this was one of the reasons for using only partial protein segments in the mRNA and adenovirus vaccines... the complete protein would lead to more variant specific antibodies that could lead to this pathway in the presence of a different variant that was not neutralized by the existing (from the vaccine) antibodies. That report also mentioned a Chinese failed vaccine that used neutralized whole virons... that never saw distribution for just that reason.

    At least that's the way I understood it... whether correct or not... or correctly understood by me or not... I dunno.

    I'm thinking that if this thinking were backwards, we would be seeing large numbers of vaccinated folks showing ADE/ERD symptoms.

    Tl;dr: I read it as the more specific the spike protein used in the vaccines, the more likely the antibodies could be none-neutralizing (and hence ADE/ERD chances) for a future variant, so the only used a partial segment of the protein and avoided segments that would be highly volatile to mutation/variants.
     
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    rooster

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    97% of cases in NY are vaxed
     

    Route 45

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    97% of cases in NY are vaxed
    Did you even read the article?

    "Across the U.S., confirmed coronavirus cases have doubled in more than 40 states in the last two weeks. About 97% of cases are among the unvaccinated, and 40% of the country has yet to get the shot. Dr. Anthony Fauci warned Sunday that things will get worse, saying more “pain and suffering” is on the horizon as he pleads with unvaccinated Americans to get their shots."
     

    rooster

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    Did you even read the article?

    "Across the U.S., confirmed coronavirus cases have doubled in more than 40 states in the last two weeks. About 97% of cases are among the unvaccinated, and 40% of the country has yet to get the shot. Dr. Anthony Fauci warned Sunday that things will get worse, saying more “pain and suffering” is on the horizon as he pleads with unvaccinated Americans to get their shots."
     

    rooster

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    Interestingly later down the article is says the opposite. The first is in line with the numbers coming out of Israel that say 80% of new cases are vaccinated......
     

    rooster

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    phylodog

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    And yet this article says less than 1% of delta cases are among the vaccinated...,

    drawing numbers out of a hat. Real data doesn’t fluctuate like this.

    "Although there is no single definitive repository for state-by-state data (the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has stopped monitoring), the Kaiser Family Foundation (KFF) reviewed data from official websites and state sources for all 50 states and D.C. to see which are showing more COVID-19 breakthrough cases, hospitalizations, and deaths. This data varies, as each state reports this information differently and less than half are even reporting data on breakthrough cases. If the state didn’t have a report, KFF looked to Johns Hopkins University and the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services for hospitalization totals."

    How could anyone possibly doubt the data?

    ps - I smoked pot with Johnny Hopkins and Sloan Ketoraine.
     

    DoggyDaddy

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    Interestingly later down the article is says the opposite. The first is in line with the numbers coming out of Israel that say 80% of new cases are vaccinated......
    Yeah, I was going to say that you're both right (about what the article says). Early in the article, it says what you posted with your screen shot, but then further down...

    1627985200386.png
     

    SheepDog4Life

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    Are we not hearing reports of the vaccinated faring worse when reinfected with Delta? If true, ADE might be the mechanism behind that statistic
    Links?

    ETA: I am seeing data indicating that the vaccines aren't as protective against Delta as previous variants, resulting in hospitalizations/deaths in vaccinated (Kaiser) but those go include data all the way back to January... so aren't particularly useful.

    Also seeing reports out of Israel that the elderly who were vaccinated first (Jan) are seeing lessened protection against severe outcomes versus those vaccinated later (March).

    But nothing that vaccinated have worse outcomes.
     
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    jamil

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    I absolutely agree with you that there has been mischaracterizations, mis/disinformation, agendas and hype... but I would say that is true from both of the opposing tribes on this whole subject.

    Believe the media? Nope. Believe politicians (and Fauci is one)? Nope.

    Trustworthy sources are difficult to find, if not impossible. But I can spot BS or just plain uninformed a mile away... for example if some headline is that X people died/had some horrible condition arise within y months of taking a vaccine, BUT don't include what the "normal" rate is... then at best it is uniformed, at worst it is just plain old scaremongering. To date, something like 200 million Americans have had the vaccine within the past 6-7 months. 1000's, 10's of thousands of those people have died or came down with some aweful condition... the question is how many would have "normally" died or become ill? Especially with a vaccinated population that skews heavily elderly?

    I first encountered this with the results of the trials... some handful of recipients developed Bell's Palsy during the trial period... I went and looked at Bell's Palsy rates and that was the expected number of incidents for the 20/40,000 adult population in the trial. But that didn't stop some from "screaming" it causes Bell's Palsy. Rinse, repeat.

    Yup, the other tribe does use fearmongering... but Mike, I sit here in the middle, a member of neither tribe, and see your tribe use fearmongering over and over.

    And, are the COVID case/death numbers accurate to the Nth degree? Nope? Are they imaginary figures that are really just flu deaths? Nope. Who do I trust? A couple medical professionals that I have known since birth and held them when they were mere hours old... who have seen and worked in the COVID ICUs. Who have been present for too many coded COVID patients to count, but can remember each and every one that lived and came off a ventilator.

    So, you mischaracterize me by saying I "believe" TPTB... I don't. BUT, that doesn't mean that they aren't occasionally right or are sometimes mostly right. There has also been a lot that they were wrong about, or mostly wrong about. Which tribe am I talking about? Both... IMO.

    Anyhow, the post was meant very much along the lines of the debate decades ago, and I was a smoker at the time, now ex-smoker, just how should we feel about, and what should society pay for, when a heavy smoker for decades develops lung cancer.

    So, I'll end by rephrasing it as a question... if someone refuses the vaccine, believes COVID is just a cold/flu, but develops a severe case of COVID requiring hospitalization/treatment and/or ICU care... should they go and accept it. Should society (taxpayers and medical health insurance premium payers) be required to pay for that care?

    What doesn't work about the smokers example, smokers often have to pay more for health insurance, and they should, because they're a higher risk group. Also, in terms of risk evaluation, when deciding to smoke or not smoke, one doesn't need to consider the risks of not smoking. There is only an upside to not smoking. There IS a risk in being vaccinated.

    Someone who is 20 and healthy has WAY less risk if they're infected with covid. It's extremely rare that a 20 year old has a bad outcome with covid. However, the risks associated with being vaccinated, as best I can tell from the literature, are about the same by age group. The upside to risking the vaccine has been that you won't infect others. And now it's looking like that upside is less true.

    Where the risk is high from the disease, the best calculation is to be vaccinated. And most of those people are vaccinated. You want to talk about fear mongering, the Bidenites are telling people it's the knuckle dragging Trumpers not vaccinating. And I suppose if you break things down by political affiliation, it's true enough that vaccine reluctance is higher among right wingers than left wingers.

    But that doesn't tell the whole story. The vast majority of people over 65, the group with the highest risk from covid, ARE vaccinated, and that's regardless of political affiliation. So it looks to me like vaccine compliance appears to follow risk, which is how it should be in a free society.
     
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