Vaccine coercion/bribery

[jsharmon7]

All reported cases between sometime in early April and an endpoint in late July I believe, interval specifically chosen for assumed dominance of the Delta variant

We are on the same page here. So my point, then, is this:

If we are looking at all reported cases, why is one of those groups so much larger? In other words, if we are looking at all reported cases, why are there 12.3x more reported cases among the unvaccinated? I agree with the rest of the math about the outcomes. But, if half the people are vaccinated, and half aren’t, we SHOULD end up with equal sample sizes if the vaccine didn’t work at all. We would have 250k cases among the vaccinated and 250k among the unvaccinated. To me, that would suggest the vaccine DOES prevent more infections.

I’m not arguing everyone should run out and get vaccinated if they don’t want to. My point is just that telling people that it’s not just ineffective, but actually maybe more dangerous, is irresponsible and not supported by numbers.

 

[JettaKnight]

You accept truth from sources you don't approve of?

I'll at least review it without making claims about the Ministry of Information or some other group trying to keep me in the dark.

 

[BugI02]

Oops.



But, I kinda like it. I’m leaving it.

iPhone, yes?

 

[BugI02]

Personally, I'd rather just get the shot and then not get COVID.

If you were able to just stop there and not proselytize, you'd be fine

Sometimes it seems you are the one you're trying to convince

 

[phylodog]

I'll at least review it without making claims about the Ministry of Information or some other group trying to keep me in the dark.

Uhhh, ok. ?

 

[JettaKnight]

Ultimately, you’re free to avoid the vaccine. I’d like my decision to be based on all the available information.

I'll go a step further and admit my decision was based on information available, my preconceived notions, and peer pressure.


No human operates on a purely logical level.

 

[Hatin Since 87]

iPhone, yes?

Yep

 

[phylodog]

No human operates on a purely logical level.

Some are most certainly more capable than others.

 

[JettaKnight]

Probably need to clean more than irony off your monitor. You are one of the "they" mentioned. I want to see robust debate between the doctors and scientists in public, but the sources you believe will not allow that but like a good sheep you follow along. I want FREEOM OF SPEECH for ALL! Not the censorship you will not denounce or even admit exists.

I want truthful statistics and unfettered information. That is not what we have and until we do this will not end.

When you have to resort to derogatory statements about "sheep", you've already lost the debate.

When you've determined that anyone not holding to your assessment of the situation and facts are dumb, then you've painted yourself into a corner - you can't possibly be open to changing your mind if doing so would put you in the same league as people you've called idiots. And if you're not open to changing your mind, then why on earth would anyone possibly want to discuss something with you? Is your view of an open disscussion just you telling people they're dumb?

That's not an open discussion or debate; that's a shouting match.

 

[Hatin Since 87]

I'll go a step further and admit my decision was based on information available

So, in a couple years you may see side effects from the vaccine. We only go off information that’s available at the time. I’d rather let the test of time be my deciding factor. In 5 years if this is still a thing and side effects are extremely rare, sure I’ll consider it. Otherwise, nah.

 

[BugI02]

Really? Really? Do you really think that's a possibility? I don't. That's why I said "irrational".

Wasn't that long ago that no one thought an experimental vaccine being tested on children for Dengue could possibly make things worse. Then it was discovered that when they got infected with one of the other four strains of the virus circulating, their case was MUCH more serious and damaging and many died

A new process called antibody dependent enhancement (ADE) was discovered and the scientists congratulated themselves, but the 'test subjects' were still ****ed up

 

[jsharmon7]

I'll go a step further and admit my decision was based on information available, my preconceived notions, and peer pressure.


No human operates on a purely logical level.

I haven’t gotten the vaccine, and won’t get it unless it becomes absolutely unavoidable. My reasoning is that I’ve had Covid and everything I’ve seen suggests natural immunity is sufficient. I tried to prove myself wrong but when Harvard and MIT and similar are saying it, it seems legit.

I’m only in this debate because I had the free time to read and respond today. Generally I skim through a lot of the posts and think “where the hell did that info come from?” Today I was able to start asking people, which is apparently frowned upon in this establishment.

 

[BugI02]

If you just don't want to get vaccinated for whatever reason, fine, that's valid. But let that be your choice, quit trying to tell others it's bad [good]

Rhetorician, heal thyself

 

[JettaKnight]

I haven’t gotten the vaccine, and won’t get it unless it becomes absolutely unavoidable. My reasoning is that I’ve had Covid and everything I’ve seen suggests natural immunity is sufficient. I tried to prove myself wrong but when Harvard and MIT and similar are saying it, it seems legit.

I’m only in this debate because I had the free time to read and respond today. Generally I skim through a lot of the posts and think “where the hell did that info come from?” Today I was able to start asking people, which is apparently frowned upon in this establishment.

We've gotten to point where, "I don't trust establishment A, therefore if establishment B trashes A, then I'll trust B."


Scratch that, we've been at that point for centuries.

 

[jsharmon7]

We've gotten to point where, "I don't trust establishment A, therefore if establishment B trashes A, then I'll trust B."


Scratch that, we've been at that point for centuries.

Honestly, that factors into the stock I put in the studies. So much of what I’ve seen is “just get the vaccine either way.” Here are respected institutions saying “well maybe not.” I don’t trust the Biden administration and here is Harvard saying something other than “do it because we said so.”

 

[buckwacker]

When you have to resort to derogatory statements about "sheep", you've already lost the debate.

When you've determined that anyone not holding to your assessment of the situation and facts are dumb, then you've painted yourself into a corner - you can't possibly be open to changing your mind if doing so would put you in the same league as people you've called idiots. And if you're not open to changing your mind, then why on earth would anyone possibly want to discuss something with you? Is your view of an open disscussion just you telling people they're dumb?

That's not an open discussion or debate; that's a shouting match.

Ok Tex.

 

[BugI02]

To me, that would suggest the vaccine DOES prevent more infections.

Or postpones them

 

[JettaKnight]

So, in a couple years you may see side effects from the vaccine. We only go off information that’s available at the time. I’d rather let the test of time be my deciding factor. In 5 years if this is still a thing and side effects are extremely rare, sure I’ll consider it. Otherwise, nah.

There was several posts about, "we don't know what we don't know", i.e. there might be some terrible side effect, but who can tell? (even an analogy to asbestos) So are we really just going off of the information available, or adding a healthy dose of conjecture and skepticism?

Those aren't bad, but let's at least be honest about.

 

[JettaKnight]

Or postpones them

Every now and then I click that "show ignore" button, because every now and then you have a faint glow in that light bulb of yours.


(It's football season, Bug, so that's the best complement I can offer to someone living in that den of iniquities. )

 

[Ingomike]

So your idea of an open forum for discussion is people who agree with you discussing why your opinions are correct? And anyone who questions whether those beliefs make sense is labeled a troll? The Jeep guy was a troll, but he’s the only one I’ve seen lately. He only posted things to get a rise out of people rather than submit a relevant thought or opinion.

I come into these things with an open mind. If you can show me something I might have missed in my thinking, I like to look into it. When Leo posted his source for why he thinks false positives are at 40%, I read through the entire link. That’s why sources DO matter, and why it’s become such a bugaboo for me. Some guy comes into the thread and says the vaccine is designed to control the population and I’d love to know where they got that. If the source of that “information” doesn’t exist, or is just a link to someone else making the same claim without evidence, that matters. We all seem to agree that having the opportunity to make your own decisions about the vaccine is paramount. Those decisions have to be based on something you can read and analyze for yourself. When someone posts stats about something, and the conclusions they drew from those stats don’t make sense to you, that’s important. If someone pointing out inconsistencies in logic is offensive to you, maybe ask yourself why. I’m interested in the truth, as close as I can get to it. I’d challenge you to look at my post history on this subject and believe I’m on any particular side of this debate. The fact that some people can’t handle anyone challenging their beliefs is an indication of a closed mind. That’s definitely not “open discussion.”

Ultimately, you’re free to avoid the vaccine. I’d like my decision to be based on all the available information.

Let me try again to make my point.

How can the religious have a conversation about religion if the atheists always are shouting there is no God?

I'm not trying to silence anyone just wish to be able have a discussion without those that have bought the overhyped official narrative constantly knocking everything because it doesn't come from their sources...