Unmarked LEO vehicles and traffic stops

[Timjoebillybob]

A lot could be accomplished by requiring cameras on every policeman and LEO vehicle that records to the cloud automatically and notifies the base whenever the camera is turned off. If every word and action is sent automatically to the cloud and the public knows it is accessible, both parties will be careful and less likely to misbehave.

Require officers out of uniform to observe only until a uniformed officer in a marked car can arrive and make the stop. If you are on duty, wear the uniform unless working undercover on a specific assignment not related to traffic stops. If you are not on duty, barring an emergency situation, you are not working.

There needs to be a citizens board to lodge complaints to and investigate. Not a police dominated board with one citizen.

Fortunately, most of my encounters with LEO's has been without drama. But it only takes one bad encounter to cost someone their life.

A few things. Regarding cameras I only have one real issue with them, other than perhaps cost. And that would be privacy, when you say accessible do you mean all video to anyone? What about lets say a guy who seizes while taking a dump, do you think he's gonna want video of him lying on the floor with his pants down around his ankles covered in crap floating around? How about a woman who is raped in her house when the police respond? Or heck, how many people on this forum would want video of the inside of their house freely available if the police mistakenly responded to or served a search warrant to the wrong address? I can think of many others. There would need to be some very well thought out legislation for it, and with the current proliferation of body cams it's well overdue.

When you say observe, do you mean just follow until another officer can get there. Or being able to stop and then wait for one? If the former, how about a reckless driver/suspected dui/etc. Should they be required to just tail along for however long it takes for another officer to get there?

Who picks the citizens?

And my encounters have been mostly without drama as well, and I've had more than my fair share of them in my misspent youth. But even with the proliferation of cameras everywhere, I've seen very few instances where the police officer just went off without something else going on. Former officer harless out of OH being one of the main ones.

True, but generally, the person being stopped is being an ass. I’m guessing NOT being an ass significantly increases your chance of not getting shot?

Chris Rock had something to say about that.
Language.
How not to get your *** kicked by the police.

 

[JettaKnight]

The lights are what annoy me.

Most unmarked cars have such dim or near impossible to see lights, it just seems like some wacko is tailgating you.

Light bars exist for a reason and should be used.

Michigan has it right: the gumball machine.

And Ohio has it right: no unmarked cars enforcing traffic laws. (I just threw up a bit in my mouth typing that)

 

[JettaKnight]

That is unreadable. Paragraphs and the return key are your friends.

to his credit, he used commas...

 

[Double T]

This is where there can be an issue- at night. The vehicle has to be clearly marked or the officer must be in uniform. If it were me, I would pull over if I was lit up, but if the vehicle is unmarked and the person who gets out is not in uniform, I would drive away. Tougher to see if the person is in uniform at night.

You talking, full PD blues, or the guys who run around with a polo and khaki's? Asking for a friend.

 

[retyree98]

A few things. Regarding cameras I only have one real issue with them, other than perhaps cost. And that would be privacy, when you say accessible do you mean all video to anyone? What about lets say a guy who seizes while taking a dump, do you think he's gonna want video of him lying on the floor with his pants down around his ankles covered in crap floating around? How about a woman who is raped in her house when the police respond? Or heck, how many people on this forum would want video of the inside of their house freely available if the police mistakenly responded to or served a search warrant to the wrong address? I can think of many others. There would need to be some very well thought out legislation for it, and with the current proliferation of body cams it's well overdue.

When you say observe, do you mean just follow until another officer can get there. Or being able to stop and then wait for one? If the former, how about a reckless driver/suspected dui/etc. Should they be required to just tail along for however long it takes for another officer to get there?

Who picks the citizens?

And my encounters have been mostly without drama as well, and I've had more than my fair share of them in my misspent youth. But even with the proliferation of cameras everywhere, I've seen very few instances where the police officer just went off without something else going on. Former officer harless out of OH being one of the main ones.


Chris Rock had something to say about that.
Language.
How not to get your *** kicked by the police.

These things can be worked out by people much smarter than I. These are ideas that need fleshed out and carefully written with personal privacy considered. I think recordings accessibility can be by court order decided by a judge.

 

[BugI02]

If I get pulled over at night by an unmarked car and someone out of uniform walks up. I’m driving away slowly. This isn’t a high speed situation. 10-15 mph and I’m calling 911, in that situation I would feel in danger

European cop cars are highlighter yellow to show people that’s the police and they are here to help. American police departments like to show off vaguely marked cars on their FB like they are cool.
It’s a trend that needs to stop.

A black vehicle with low profile lights and minimal markings is the Ghillie suit for those that snipe with radar/lidar

 

[BugI02]

The only ones triggered around here are all the LEO’s and their boot licking fan club every time I post a comment. It’s flattering really.

Kinda seems triggered to me

 

[BugI02]

Wow, this thread took a turn...

ISP Mustangs! Back in the day (early Reagan Administration, Ford ditched the AWFUL Mustang II and brought back a Mustang with a 302) ISP discovered Mustangs. My Dad had been friends with an ISP Trooper in Washington County since school. When the ISP 'stangs started showing up, Dad saw the Trooper in a restaurant in Salem. Dad asked him when he was getting his Mustang. The Trooper started laughing and said NEVER! They are too fast!

I drove a primered pick-up from 1990-1998 (finally got it painted.) It was a Mazda B2000 2WD long bed. Speeding wasn't an issue, but people with primered truck must do bad stuff. Got stopped coming in the gate I don't know how many times. The gate Cop would get on the radio for 15-30 seconds, then wave me through. Got pulled over in Biloxi, Mississippi when I was in school down there. The Cop needed sub-titles (Gator Hunter show type accent) and probably thought I'd hand him my beer while getting my license out. Still not sure why he pulled me over.

Driving my wife's car on base I got a ticket (on a Sunday, during an IG Inspection, what crap.) I told my 1st Sgt the B2000 couldn't get going that fast in that distance. I think his response was "that's your truck??"

Ahhh, memories. Those were great little trucks. I only got rid of mine because everything just wore completely out

 

[BugI02]

I believe it's time for the legislature to amend the laws pertaining to unmarked LEO vehicles, uniformed officers, ghost lettering, pursuit rules, and recording stops. A lot could be accomplished by requiring cameras on every policeman and LEO vehicle that records to the cloud automatically and notifies the base whenever the camera is turned off. If every word and action is sent automatically to the cloud and the public knows it is accessible, both parties will be careful and less likely to misbehave. Require officers out of uniform to observe only until a uniformed officer in a marked car can arrive and make the stop. If you are on duty, wear the uniform unless working undercover on a specific assignment not related to traffic stops. If you are not on duty, barring an emergency situation, you are not working. My barber doesn't go around cutting hair while he is at the grocery just because someone needs it... If your car is marked, make it marked well enough to be recognized 100 feet away. Define exactly what goal is to be accomplished by having unmarked cars for traffic duty. Our small town was cursed for a few years with the chief constable, head honcho or whatever title he had, pulling people over while he was wearing nothing but cutoff shorts, flip flops and a gun while driving his own unmarked car or truck. He spent his time at the local diner bragging about looking down some girls blouse or speaking about wanting to pull some hottie over in the dark and having his way with her. One poor soul complained to the local paper and he and his employees were pulled over several times in the next two weeks. There needs to be a citizens board to lodge complaints to and investigate. Not a police dominated board with one citizen. Too many times the police have lost sight of their purpose, to protect and serve. As we have seen recently, like during the downtown riots, the local police did not protect persons or property, and didn't serve the community. Correcting this starts with the legislature, moves on to the executive branch...like the mayors office. Then down through the ranks to the individual officers. Fortunately, most of my encounters with LEO's has been without drama. But it only takes one bad encounter to cost someone their life.

If that woody you're sporting for all LEO lasts more than 4 hours, I think you're supposed to consult medical help

 

[BehindBlueI's]

These things can be worked out by people much smarter than I. These are ideas that need fleshed out and carefully written with personal privacy considered. I think recordings accessibility can be by court order decided by a judge.

Judges need a legal framework to make those decisions with, which largely already exists and typically does not require tying up a courtroom.

A lot of what you're proposing isn't realistic for a large number of reasons, not least of which is you seem to assume only uniformed officers take enforcement actions or that all police are in an enforcement role. Our armorer is a sworn officer. Do we need a law that says he has to wear a camera while he works on guns? How do you equip detectives with cameras? How will that hamper their ability to deal with confidential informants or anonymous witnesses? Is that desirable? I'm a secretary with a badge. I supervise a detective's office, I do not take any sort of enforcement actions any longer...but if I see a crime occurring that's life threatening I'm supposed to just drive on since I don't have a camera?

I understand your desires for accountability, but you're approaching it like a politician. I don't know anything about this other than a very limited glimpse, so let me set a bunch of rules without understanding any of the implications of what I'm proposing.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Michigan has it right: the gumball machine.

And Ohio has it right: no unmarked cars enforcing traffic laws. (I just threw up a bit in my mouth typing that)

I don't think it has to be the gumball machine, but the more aerodynamic roof bars would be good.

And yeah, as much as it pains me to say, Ohio got it right on that one.

A black vehicle with low profile lights and minimal markings is the Ghillie suit for those that snipe with radar/lidar

Heck with the low profile, have you seen the "visor" lights. They're mounted inside and flip down like a sun visor. No exterior markings and a handheld radar...

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Judges need a legal framework to make those decisions with, which largely already exists and typically does not require tying up a courtroom.

A lot of what you're proposing isn't realistic for a large number of reasons, not least of which is you seem to assume only uniformed officers take enforcement actions or that all police are in an enforcement role. Our armorer is a sworn officer. Do we need a law that says he has to wear a camera while he works on guns? How do you equip detectives with cameras? How will that hamper their ability to deal with confidential informants or anonymous witnesses? Is that desirable? I'm a secretary with a badge. I supervise a detective's office, I do not take any sort of enforcement actions any longer...but if I see a crime occurring that's life threatening I'm supposed to just drive on since I don't have a camera?

I understand your desires for accountability, but you're approaching it like a politician. I don't know anything about this other than a very limited glimpse, so let me set a bunch of rules without understanding any of the implications of what I'm proposing.

Thanks much for posting this, quite a few things I haven't thought of.

 

[KellyinAvon]

Momentary thread Jack going back to the original post, armed robbery facilitated by what was perceived to be an unmarked police vehicle. This happened in daylight in Brownsburg that is concerning. Sending out the chapter and verse from Indiana code concerning unmarked police vehicles/uniformed officers is a good thing to do. A lot of people aren’t up on the news like most of us on INGO.

 

[retyree98]

Judges need a legal framework to make those decisions with, which largely already exists and typically does not require tying up a courtroom.

A lot of what you're proposing isn't realistic for a large number of reasons, not least of which is you seem to assume only uniformed officers take enforcement actions or that all police are in an enforcement role. Our armorer is a sworn officer. Do we need a law that says he has to wear a camera while he works on guns? How do you equip detectives with cameras? How will that hamper their ability to deal with confidential informants or anonymous witnesses? Is that desirable? I'm a secretary with a badge. I supervise a detective's office, I do not take any sort of enforcement actions any longer...but if I see a crime occurring that's life threatening I'm supposed to just drive on since I don't have a camera?

I understand your desires for accountability, but you're approaching it like a politician. I don't know anything about this other than a very limited glimpse, so let me set a bunch of rules without understanding any of the implications of what I'm proposing.

This is why these are ideas that need discussed. You are right that much thought needs to be put into every law. Of course exceptions, exclusions and such need to be part of the law. I never realized so many leo's would attack any thought of increasing the accountability of the few to increase the trust-ability of the many. Most laws are written for the few, but make the many safer.

I thought this forum was for dialog from differing perspectives. I never suggested taking a forum post and making it a verbatim law. We are talking about unmarked leo vehicles and traffic stops. Nothing in your posted response addresses this topic.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

This is why these are ideas that need discussed. You are right that much thought needs to be put into every law. Of course exceptions, exclusions and such need to be part of the law. I never realized so many leo's would attack any thought of increasing the accountability of the few to increase the trust-ability of the many. Most laws are written for the few, but make the many safer.

I thought this forum was for dialog from differing perspectives. I never suggested taking a forum post and making it a verbatim law. We are talking about unmarked leo vehicles and traffic stops. Nothing in your posted response addresses this topic.

Pointing out flaws isn't "attacking" and that's actually what a dialogue is.

I've already addressed unmarkeds and traffic stops in prior posts in this thread. If you have specific questions about that or what I've already addressed, feel free to ask.

 

[KellyinAvon]

 

[jsharmon7]

I think we should get rid of traffic laws. That would totally solve this problem. Buy some good insurance, reinforce those bumpers, and buckle in. Raise hell, praise Dale!

 

[Tombs]

At the beginning of my career I would have agreed with you. I've had unmarkeds that were basically invisible, even with the siren on. Even the old school lightbars weren't that bright in the daylight. Today, though, with the LEDs that can be seen from space? Nah, there's no reason an unmarked can't be lit up like a Steven Spielberg is going to have an alien walk down a ramp from it.

I was pulled over by some dodge SUV a number of years ago, and his only lights were in his headlights.

And in broad daylight, the ONLY hint I had that maybe it was a cop was because he was almost touching my bumper on the highway and wouldn't go around. It wasn't until we were pulled off in a little shade that I actually saw that there were faintly blinking red and blue lights.

I don't get pulled over much, only 2 times that I can remember. So I don't know about the new cars.
The last time I was pulled over was because the DMV screwed up my registration with the wrong color code.

 

[littletommy]

Last time I got pulled over was earlier this year, I was pretty confident it was a real cop, knoxville police marked car, his lightbar was already lit up before I even got to him. Got a ticket for that one. Nice guy, very professional and polite, even when I screamed “DON’T TAZE ME BRO” as he approached the car.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I never realized so many leo's would attack any thought of increasing the accountability of the few to increase the trust-ability of the many.

How many people that responded to you, do you think are LEO's?