Russia vs. Ukraine Part 2

[Brad69]

IMO the conflict is close to a civil war Ukraine was a trusted part of the Soviet Union.
The Ukrainians were given nuclear weapons.

The Ukrainian people basically have dictatorship. Political parties have been banned and tons of people are locked up as political prisoners.

The image of a Democracy loving country fighting for survival is flawed IMO. It’s more like Hitler fighting Mussolini. How much do we want to “bleed” for a stalemate?

Lessons From the U.S. Civil War Show Why Ukraine Can't Win

During the early years of America's Civil War, President Abraham Lincoln sought a limited conflict against people he still regarded as fellow countrymen and with whom he sought reconciliation. Only after three years of stalemate did he turn to "Unconditional Surrender Grant," who in turn unleashed

www.newsweek.com

 

[Route 45]

IMO the conflict is close to a civil war Ukraine was a trusted part of the Soviet Union.

I guess if Mexico decides to invade Texas, it would also be a civil war, by your measure.

News flash: The Soviet Union does not exist. The attempt to reboot it is what is currently going on.

 

[Leadeye]

I'm skeptical of the Newsweek article and it's a stretch to compare Lincoln's strategy to Putin's. January is coming to a close so unless the Russians are really letting loose their winter equivalent to Bagration in the next few weeks I think any possible offensive will be more summer than winter. The weekly rocket bombardment seems more like protracted, constant war rather than a softening up before a big move. Something that reduces stress on the country's logistical abilities while staying active. Russians know how to do pre offensive bombardment and this ain't it, somebody must still teach that at Frunze Academy. Bagration and the Vistula Oder offensives were not that long ago.

 

[Brad69]

I guess if Mexico decides to invade Texas, it would also be a civil war, by your measure.

News flash: The Soviet Union does not exist. The attempt to reboot it is what is currently going on.

No more like if Indiana attacked Kentucky.
The Russians and Ukraines are the same.
It's Russian corruption vs Ukraine corruption. Let em kill each other off.

No reason to support Ukraine other than inflicting pain on the Russians.

 

[bobzilla]

No more like if Indiana attacked Kentucky.
The Russians and Ukraines are the same.
It's Russian corruption vs Ukraine corruption. Let em kill each other off.

No reason to support Ukraine other than inflicting pain on the Russians.

Sorry but you're wrong. Ukraine was and is a sovereign country. Their internal corruption is no different than our own. Does that mean that its ok for any country to invade us? No. It's not. The reason Ukraine deserves support is the fact that they are a sovereign country that deserves the right to self govern. No one has the right to invade, bomb and destroy infrastructure in another country unless they are being invaded themselve IMO.

 

[Brad69]

Hmm
Seems like we invaded Iraq ?

 

[bobzilla]

Hmm
Seems like we invaded Iraq ?

Did I say that was the right thing to do?

Honestly I don't think the US military should have been involved in any of the conflicts we we were from 1953 until 1990. Iraq invaded Kuwait, a national coalition pushed them out. The second invasion was based on lies told by our "intelligence" to continue to keep the MIC in power. Unless someone has been invaded and we are their main line of support, we should not be involved.

 

[gvbcraig]

IMO the conflict is close to a civil war Ukraine was a trusted part of the Soviet Union.
The Ukrainians were given nuclear weapons.

The Ukrainian people basically have dictatorship. Political parties have been banned and tons of people are locked up as political prisoners.

The image of a Democracy loving country fighting for survival is flawed IMO. It’s more like Hitler fighting Mussolini. How much do we want to “bleed” for a stalemate?

Lessons From the U.S. Civil War Show Why Ukraine Can't Win

During the early years of America's Civil War, President Abraham Lincoln sought a limited conflict against people he still regarded as fellow countrymen and with whom he sought reconciliation. Only after three years of stalemate did he turn to "Unconditional Surrender Grant," who in turn unleashed

www.newsweek.com

“The Russians and Ukraines are the same.” That happens to be the biggest insult to people of Ukrainian descent, it’s equivalent to using the N word to an African America.

Obviously you as most Americans are not aware of the history of these two countries. Additionally a lot of published history was rewritten during the rein of Catherine the Great. Ukraine has been overrun and conscripted by Russia. Majority of Ukraine was under Serfdom till the late 1880’s, then forced into collectivization (if you disagreed with that, you were either shot or sent to Siberia as my grandparents were).

Ukrainians have tried numerous times to break away from the yoke of Russian control. The 2014 Maidan Revolt is what started the most recent rejection of Russian influence. Russia has seen that and wanted to restore that influence, that is what this terrorist invasion is all about.
Putin wants to put the Ukrainians in what he perceives is their place on the Russian plantation.

Also understand that during the Soviet era, there was the Russification of Ukraine, through outlawing the Ukrainian language and culture. Taking away of Ukrainian land / property and giving it to Russians and Russian supporters (as my family’s property was). The eastern part of Ukraine has the highest concentration of Russian transplants.

please never say “The Russians and Ukraines are the same”.
THEY ARE NOT.

 

[Brad69]

Did I say that was the right thing to do?

Honestly I don't think the US military should have been involved in any of the conflicts we we were from 1953 until 1990. Iraq invaded Kuwait, a national coalition pushed them out. The second invasion was based on lies told by our "intelligence" to continue to keep the MIC in power. Unless someone has been invaded and we are their main line of support, we should not be involved.

I concour !

The Grenada invasion was ok we saved the students.

 

[bobzilla]

I concour !

The Grenada invasion was ok we saved the students.

it was less "invasion" and more "go in and get the people out"

 

[Brad69]

“The Russians and Ukraines are the same.” That happens to be the biggest insult to people of Ukrainian descent, it’s equivalent to using the N word to an African America.

Obviously you as most Americans are not aware of the history of these two countries. Additionally a lot of published history was rewritten during the rein of Catherine the Great. Ukraine has been overrun and conscripted by Russia. Majority of Ukraine was under Serfdom till the late 1880’s, then forced into collectivization (if you disagreed with that, you were either shot or sent to Siberia as my grandparents were).

Ukrainians have tried numerous times to break away from the yoke of Russian control. The 2014 Maidan Revolt is what started the most recent rejection of Russian influence. Russia has seen that and wanted to restore that influence, that is what this terrorist invasion is all about.
Putin wants to put the Ukrainians in what he perceives is their place on the Russian plantation.

Also understand that during the Soviet era, there was the Russification of Ukraine, through outlawing the Ukrainian language and culture. Taking away of Ukrainian land / property and giving it to Russians and Russian supporters (as my family’s property was). The eastern part of Ukraine has the highest concentration of Russian transplants.

please never say “The Russians and Ukraines are the same”.
THEY ARE NOT.

Ok
Russians and Ukraines are not the same!

 

[BigMoose]

I dunno. Giving Putin a headache is worth it alone.

But so is keeping the Ukrainians free.

 

[bobzilla]

I dunno. Giving Putin a headache is worth it alone.

But so is keeping the Ukrainians free.

a weakened Russia is a good a good thing for us. Plus we can see just how terrible not only their equipment is but how unorganized and poorly trained their entire military happens to be without putting US lives on the line. If we have anyone worth a **** left in our military and intelligence services they are paying close attention to what how when and why.

 

[BigMoose]

a weakened Russia is a good a good thing for us. Plus we can see just how terrible not only their equipment is but how unorganized and poorly trained their entire military happens to be without putting US lives on the line. If we have anyone worth a **** left in our military and intelligence services they are paying close attention to what how when and why.

I have a suspicion that the entire Ukranian campaign is being planned at West Point and fed to the Ukrainians.

 

[bobzilla]

I have a suspicion that the entire Ukranian campaign is being planned at West Point and fed to the Ukrainians.

If it works it works. As long as we keep our boots out of the meat grinder.

 

[Libertarian01]

Regards,

Doug
Bulll Sshitt

Which part, and specifically why?

Regards,

Doug

 

[BugI02]

How much do we want to “bleed” for a stalemate?

The Military Industrial Complex wants to know 'How much have you got?'

 

[BugI02]

I dunno. Giving Putin a headache is worth it alone.

But so is keeping the Ukrainians free.

The biggest problem with 'riding the tiger' is trying to stick the dismount

What will a 'defeat' of Russia look like and how will we make it stick? Treaty of Versailles 2.0, since the first one worked so well?

 

[bobzilla]

Which part, and specifically why?

Regards,

Doug

The part where they found something shiny in the classies.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

The part where they found something shiny in the classies.

They still haven't hit 50 yet.