Russia vs. Ukraine Part 2

[BigMoose]

The part where they found something shiny in the classies.

Wait there are shiney things in the classifieds?

I thought it was all polymer tactical crap...

 

[asevans]

Uh..... yeah. No. The russians/soviets never had the "best", they had "the most". Their tactics have always been to overwhelm their enemy with numbers instead of quality. We've seen what small, mobile and capable units can do to soviet era armor. Pop the tops because of a poor design.

Never said that wasn’t their tactic. Everyone knows that. I said Russia has some of most advance weapon systems in the world. They just don’t have very many of them.

 

[Route 45]

Never said that wasn’t their tactic. Everyone knows that. I said Russia has some of most advance weapon systems in the world. They just don’t have very many of them.

 

[BigMoose]

View attachment 251769

Common tactic by just about anyone.

One of the things the Germans ended up with after the German unification, was an East German plant capable of 1 to 1 resin tank decoy production. They had the plant make some Tiger replicas to use up supplies on hand then shut it down.

 

[bobzilla]

Never said that wasn’t their tactic. Everyone knows that. I said Russia has some of most advance weapon systems in the world. They just don’t have very many of them.

Not really. Their premier “stealthy” fighter bomber is shot down with stingers for crying out loud. Their top tier tanks are challenging each other for how far they can blow their turrets off. Their communication gear are cell phones. They are, at best, a 3rd world army and have been a paper tiger for generations.

 

[asevans]

Ok and what of the M1 abrams tanks blown up by cavemen in the Middle East? How many was it? I didn’t say thier military equipment was indestructible. I said Russia has some of the most advanced military equipment in the world. Just not a lot of it.

 

[Libertarian01]

The part where they found something shiny in the classies.

Are you saying my post was used just so somebody could gain access to the classifieds???

I feel used. I need to shower.

This isn't right. I'm going to complain.

Shocked I am!

Regards.

Doug

 

[Hawkeye]

Ok and what of the M1 abrams tanks blown up by cavemen in the Middle East? How many was it? I didn’t say thier military equipment was indestructible. I said Russia has some of the most advanced military equipment in the world. Just not a lot of it.

OK. How many M1s were blown up by Middle Eastern cavemen? I don't know if any but maybe you have a # and some links?

 

[Brad69]

A total of 23 M1A1s were damaged or destroyed during the war. Of the nine Abrams tanks destroyed, seven were destroyed by friendly fire and two intentionally destroyed to prevent capture by the Iraqi Army. Some others took minor combat damage, with little effect on their operational readiness.

I witnessed a Marine M1 get smoked by the fedayeen. Did not stick around to see what did it.

I only had about 2in of German steel for protection. But we could run 65mph.

 

[bobzilla]

Ok and what of the M1 abrams tanks blown up by cavemen in the Middle East? How many was it? I didn’t say thier military equipment was indestructible. I said Russia has some of the most advanced military equipment in the world. Just not a lot of it.

You keep saying that but I don’t think it means what you think it means. How many examples do we need to give you of their “superior weapons” not working?

 

[bobzilla]

A total of 23 M1A1s were damaged or destroyed during the war. Of the nine Abrams tanks destroyed, seven were destroyed by friendly fire and two intentionally destroyed to prevent capture by the Iraqi Army. Some others took minor combat damage, with little effect on their operational readiness.

I witnessed a Marine M1 get smoked by the fedayeen. Did not stick around to see what did it.

I only had about 2in of German steel for protection. But we could run 65mph.
View attachment 251928

23 in how many years?10(?) the Russians lost 23 the first DAY of combat.

 

[KG1]

Common tactic by just about anyone.

One of the things the Germans ended up with after the German unification, was an East German plant capable of 1 to 1 resin tank decoy production. They had the plant make some Tiger replicas to use up supplies on hand then shut it down.

 

[Libertarian01]

Here is a quick synopsis. I'll throw in the link.

Total Russian losses (so far):

Armoured Personnel Carriers (APC's) = 6,307 Lost
Troops Dead (not casualties) = 123,080
Tanks = 3,161 Lost
Artillery Systems = 2,154 Lost
Aircraft shot down = 290
Drones = 1,902

Link: https://euroweeklynews.com/2023/01/25/ukraine-russian-losses-january-25/

This doesn't factor in the lack of decent maintenance the Russian equipment must be suffering from.

I wonder what their reserves are looking like?

Regards,

Doug

 

[smokingman]

Here is a quick synopsis. I'll throw in the link.

Total Russian losses (so far):

Armoured Personnel Carriers (APC's) = 6,307 Lost
Troops Dead (not casualties) = 123,080
Tanks = 3,161 Lost
Artillery Systems = 2,154 Lost
Aircraft shot down = 290
Drones = 1,902

Link: https://euroweeklynews.com/2023/01/25/ukraine-russian-losses-january-25/

This doesn't factor in the lack of decent maintenance the Russian equipment must be suffering from.

I wonder what their reserves are looking like?

Regards,

Doug

It is good to know Russia does not have a single tank left.

https://defence-blog.com/revealed-number-of-main-battle-tanks-in-russia/

 

[oze]

It is good to know Russia does not have a single tank left.

https://defence-blog.com/revealed-number-of-main-battle-tanks-in-russia/

Questionable Source 1, meet Questionable Source 2. Still, it would be awesome if Source 1 was accurate.

 

[DragonGunner]

So if Russia has 2685 tanks and lost 3161 of them then they have the same problem our elections have. Small world isn’t it.

 

[Libertarian01]

The issue with the number of Russian tanks is not a lie but rather an inadequate explanation of those numbers.

My understanding is that Russia did "have" about 3,000 tanks, give or take a few hundred. However, those are active duty full service
"modern" tanks. Those were combat ready tanks that have been reasonably updated.

What has happened is that Russia has performed so badly and the Ukrainians have done such a great job at destroying or capturing them that the Russians have been forced to pull older model tanks out of mothballs to throw into the fight! They are pulling out crap that was made in the 60's and 70's just to have armour in the field. They are sitting on mothballed reserves of about 10,000 "tanks," some of which may only be marginally better than Shermans.

Soon, the Russians may be pulling out tanks that fought off real Nazi's during WWII just to have some armour in the field. Don't forget how many Mosin Nagants or SKS's have flooded the market since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Russia doesn't throw anything away.

Regards,

Doug

PS - I forget where but I've seen a report of some Russian troops actually using Mosin Nagants in Ukraine. Sad...

 

[DadSmith]

The issue with the number of Russian tanks is not a lie but rather an inadequate explanation of those numbers.

My understanding is that Russia did "have" about 3,000 tanks, give or take a few hundred. However, those are active duty full service
"modern" tanks. Those were combat ready tanks that have been reasonably updated.

What has happened is that Russia has performed so badly and the Ukrainians have done such a great job at destroying or capturing them that the Russians have been forced to pull older model tanks out of mothballs to throw into the fight! They are pulling out crap that was made in the 60's and 70's just to have armour in the field. They are sitting on mothballed reserves of about 10,000 "tanks," some of which may only be marginally better than Shermans.

Soon, the Russians may be pulling out tanks that fought off real Nazi's during WWII just to have some armour in the field. Don't forget how many Mosin Nagants or SKS's have flooded the market since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Russia doesn't throw anything away.

Regards,

Doug

PS - I forget where but I've seen a report of some Russian troops actually using Mosin Nagants in Ukraine. Sad...

Who knows they may have some captured Tiger's, and King Tiger's. Possibly some panthers.

 

[Libertarian01]

The Germans may(?) be in a somewhat similar situation to the Russians. The latest number I have heard is that Germany only has about 350 fully active Leopard II tanks. However, at the height of the cold war they had about 2,400 or 3,400 (I forget which). So the Germans may(?) have a couple thousand mothballed tanks stored somewhere which is why Olaf Schultz said they would have to check their inventory.

I would presume that whatever the Germans have in their storage inventory has not been fully upgraded to modern specs, or fully maintained.

Another number that comes out by Oryx is suggesting that AT A MINIMUM the Russians have lost 1,646 tanks, 545 of which were kindly transferred to Ukraine when Ukraine took back Izium. However, this number is considered maybe(?) 30% low as Oryx is ONLY counting those losses which have already been 100% documented by photograph. So by Oryx's methodology the bare minimum that is 100% verified is about half of Russia's total armoured assets, including 44 T-90's, of which Russia only has about 200. Of course considering the fog of war and Oryx may be off by more than 30%...?

Link: https://inews.co.uk/news/world/tanks-russia-how-many-putin-military-ukraine-leopard-2-abrams-2108097

No matter what I see Russia being kicked out of Donbas and Crimea a lot sooner than it would like.

Regards,

Doug

 

[Wolfhound]

The Germans may(?) be in a somewhat similar situation to the Russians. The latest number I have heard is that Germany only has about 350 fully active Leopard II tanks. However, at the height of the cold war they had about 2,400 or 3,400 (I forget which). So the Germans may(?) have a couple thousand mothballed tanks stored somewhere which is why Olaf Schultz said they would have to check their inventory.

I would presume that whatever the Germans have in their storage inventory has not been fully upgraded to modern specs, or fully maintained.

Another number that comes out by Oryx is suggesting that AT A MINIMUM the Russians have lost 1,646 tanks, 545 of which were kindly transferred to Ukraine when Ukraine took back Izium. However, this number is considered maybe(?) 30% low as Oryx is ONLY counting those losses which have already been 100% documented by photograph. So by Oryx's methodology the bare minimum that is 100% verified is about half of Russia's total armoured assets, including 44 T-90's, of which Russia only has about 200. Of course considering the fog of war and Oryx may be off by more than 30%...?

Link: https://inews.co.uk/news/world/tanks-russia-how-many-putin-military-ukraine-leopard-2-abrams-2108097

No matter what I see Russia being kicked out of Donbas and Crimea a lot sooner than it would like.

Regards,

Doug

Unfortunately the Germans (in all their wisdom) sold off the vast majority of their Leopard 2 tanks at fire sale prices.