Russia vs. Ukraine Part 2

[bobzilla]

Not really. Poland is still closer to Moscow than any part of the Ukraine. What they did do was take over (had they not sucked at war) seaports that aren’t covered in Ice half the year and a large portion of the worlds grain and fertilizer production. This had about as much to do with NATO as my spoon does with my obesity

 

[AndreusMaximus]

Not really. Poland is still closer to Moscow than any part of the Ukraine. What they did do was take over (had they not sucked at war) seaports that aren’t covered in Ice half the year and a large portion of the worlds grain and fertilizer production. This had about as much to do with NATO as my spoon does with my obesity

The part you seem to keep missing is that Russia's goal is not to create the longest measured distance on a map between their border and the border of the closest NATO country. Their strategic goal, rather, is to keep NATO-friendly states away from areas that they see as more vulnerable to a potential invasion. Poland is less of a concern for them, because of the fact that Russia-friendly countries already act as a buffer between them and Poland. However, if Ukraine were to become NATO-friendly, it would be a far more strategically significant disadvantage, because that would directly threaten key areas, particularly the oil-rich areas in the South. And even though Poland is physically closer to Moscow, the route to Moscow from Ukraine is more open, especially seeing as NATO wouldn't have to first push through potentially "neutral" countries. Finally, if Russia thought they had the military capability to invade Poland, do you really think they wouldn't have done so? I see no reason why Russia wouldn't have happily invaded Poland as well, if Poland were not, unlike Ukraine, already a NATO member.

Yes, I'm sure taking over Ukraine's economic productivity was also a strong motivator for Russia. But to claim it has nothing to do with NATO just seems silly to me on the surface, and your reasons for believing this seem to be based on a fundamental misunderstanding of how things work strategically. Your initial claim that it would be silly for Russia to push their border westward if they want to keep NATO off their border is a prime example of this.

 

[KG1]

Russia set out to invade/occupy Ukraine to block what they saw as NATO expansion and western influence. Not trying to justify anything just my observation.

 

[actaeon277]

Russia thought they could win, and quickly.

Like most wars.
We'll be home before Christmas.

Nations don't start fights they think they will lose.

 

[buckwacker]

Not really. Poland is still closer to Moscow than any part of the Ukraine. What they did do was take over (had they not sucked at war) seaports that aren’t covered in Ice half the year and a large portion of the worlds grain and fertilizer production. This had about as much to do with NATO as my spoon does with my obesity

You should probably look at a map.

 

[smokingman]

Jaroslaw Pakula said the missile accident showed Warsaw needed to send a blunt message to Kiev rather than telling its own citizens “fairy tales.”

“Of course, this is a Ukrainian rocket. Of course, this is a provocation on the part of the Ukrainian authorities,” Pakula posted on his Facebook page.

“The rocket could not be fired 100km in the opposite direction by mistake,” he added, asserting that the incident was an attempt to scare the EU into sending more money to Ukraine.

Demanding that Warsaw should “no longer put up with this behavior” from Ukraine, Pakula remarked, “I urge you to rethink Poland’s position [regarding] this war in the event that the red line is crossed again!”

Polish Politician Blasts Ukraine For Missile "Provocation" | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

 

[bobzilla]

You should probably look at a map.

You're correct. My brain inverted poland and belarus looking on my phone. or Maps did the weird upside down thing.

 

[actaeon277]

“The rocket could not be fired 100km in the opposite direction by mistake,” he added, asserting that the incident was an attempt to scare the EU into sending more money to Ukraine.

If my research is right, that's approx. 10 seconds of flight time.
10 seconds in a 'combat' situation, yes I can see it.

And as for the wrong direction. Even if you have a 95 percent accuracy, there's still that 5 percent error.




MANY of the civie deaths in Pearl Harbor were caused by the US Navy's response.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

MANY of the civie deaths in Pearl Harbor were caused by the US Navy's response.

Not to mention that one awkward time we bombed Switzerland. Or the battle of Los Angeles.

I'm honestly surprised we haven't seen something like this a lot sooner, and a lot more often.

 

[oze]

Not to mention that one awkward time we bombed Switzerland. Or the battle of Los Angeles.

I'm honestly surprised we haven't seen something like this a lot sooner, and a lot more often.

Wait the *one* time we bombed Switzerland? I've been reading a lot of memoirs by WW II veterans, and more than one 8th Air Force vet alluded to some crews jettisoning their bombs over what ended up being Swiss territory, usually in an effort to stay aloft after battle damage. Also alluded to was the fact that German airmen in Swiss POW camps were, as a rule, treated much better than their American counterparts.

 

[actaeon277]

Not to mention that one awkward time we bombed Switzerland. Or the battle of Los Angeles.

I'm honestly surprised we haven't seen something like this a lot sooner, and a lot more often.

A small problem with longer ranged 'smart' machines.

A battleship in the gulf was hit by 'friendly fire' when another ship mistook it's chaff for the incoming enemy missile, and fired thru the chaff into the BB.

Torpedoes have hit wrong ships.
Torpedoes have had jammed rudders, forcing the torp into a circle. The end of a circle, is the beginning, meaning the sub is attacked by it's own weapon.
Early in ship launched missile history, missiles randomly would lose control. Caused by Electro Magnetic Interference. Took a while to figure out what was causing it. They could destroy it, because they were launching ONE missile the crew could concentrate on.
The great vaunted 'smart' bombs in the Gulf would lose lock, or lock on wrong target, or just plain fail.

It SUCKS. And it needs to be worked on.

But it is not unheard of.

 

[KG1]

MANY of the civie deaths in Pearl Harbor were caused by the US Navy's response.

That never would've happened if the Germans wouldn't have bombed Pearl Harbor. It's the Germans fault.

 

[actaeon277]

That never would've happened if the Germans wouldn't have bombed Pearl Harbor. It's the Germans fault.

Okay Senator

 

[oze]

Okay Senator


View attachment 237194

Forget it, he's rolling.

 

[actaeon277]

 

[Tombs]

A small problem with longer ranged 'smart' machines.

A battleship in the gulf was hit by 'friendly fire' when another ship mistook it's chaff for the incoming enemy missile, and fired thru the chaff into the BB.

Torpedoes have hit wrong ships.
Torpedoes have had jammed rudders, forcing the torp into a circle. The end of a circle, is the beginning, meaning the sub is attacked by it's own weapon.
Early in ship launched missile history, missiles randomly would lose control. Caused by Electro Magnetic Interference. Took a while to figure out what was causing it. They could destroy it, because they were launching ONE missile the crew could concentrate on.
The great vaunted 'smart' bombs in the Gulf would lose lock, or lock on wrong target, or just plain fail.

It SUCKS. And it needs to be worked on.

But it is not unheard of.

Bringing this full circle back to Ukraine...

Many NAFO types were saying A5 was triggered and that NATO must invade Russia as a result of this accident.

Therefor since it is now known to have been a Ukrainian missile, it is only fair to assume these people would be interested in invading Ukraine.

 

[smokingman]

Zelensky Backtracks After Urging NATO Action For Polish Border Blast | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

 

[actaeon277]

Bringing this full circle back to Ukraine...

Many NAFO types were saying A5 was triggered and that NATO must invade Russia as a result of this accident.

Therefor since it is now known to have been a Ukrainian missile, it is only fair to assume these people would be interested in invading Ukraine.

So, when Pearl Harbor was attacked, and the US Navy hit civies, we should have declared war on the US Navy?

 

[BiscuitsandGravy]

 

[Tombs]

So, when Pearl Harbor was attacked, and the US Navy hit civies, we should have declared war on the US Navy?

If the NAFO people were consistent, yeah they probably would.