Politically Motivated Violence Thread PART 2

[Hkindiana]

Yeah, there’s no implied purple in that post. If that’s what you meant, you failed miserably.

WOW, it’s amazing that you KNOW exactly what I intended. Does your brain ever hurt from everything you THINK you know?

 

[Kutnupe14]

How do you justify his shooting someone retreating as being reasonable?

Was he retreating or creating distance? Can we agree that there’s a difference between the two?
It didn’t look to me as if he was wanting to disengage more than it looked like he was moving back to re-engage.
After moving back he then deployed his spray. You think it’s reasonable to believe that he would’ve rather used his spray in a situation where he would’ve almost certainly also sprayed himself, rather than create distance to avoid that? That doesn’t seem tactically sound to me.

 

[Kutnupe14]

WOW, it’s amazing that you KNOW exactly what I intended. Does your brain ever hurt from everything you THINK you know?

If you say so. The post speaks for itself.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Nah. If it’s a fair trial Dolloff’s going to prison. But this is the land of fairies and pixie dust and a number of potential jurors who are sympathetic to seeing right-wingers get theirs. Probably gonna be at least one or two Kut’s on the jury.

Had the security guard not used excessive force I have no doubt Keltner could have been charged with assault. But getting bitch slapped isn’t a deadly force situation. Yeah, sure, it’s embarrassing AF. Either fight back or go home and cry to mommy, but you don’t draw and shoot over that.

Quick question. Can you draw down on someone who just, as you put it, “bitch slapped” you?

 

[KLB]

Was he retreating or creating distance? Can we agree that there’s a difference between the two?
It didn’t look to me as if he was wanting to disengage more than it looked like he was moving back to re-engage.
After moving back he then deployed his spray. You think it’s reasonable to believe that he would’ve rather used his spray in a situation where he would’ve almost certainly also sprayed himself, rather than create distance to avoid that? That doesn’t seem tactically sound to me.

So your contention is he was backing up to use his spray, and was simply outdrawn?

I think they will have a hard time selling that in court.

 

[KLB]

Quick question. Can you draw down on someone who just, as you put it, “bitch slapped” you?

I am going to guess, not without going to court and convincing a jury that you felt in danger of much worse.

 

[Kutnupe14]

So your contention is he was backing up to use his spray, and was simply outdrawn?

I think they will have a hard time selling that in court.

Well yes. We can see in the picture the spray in the air, and slide recoil. Who do you think pull the trigger first?

 

[BugI02]

You’re calling a security guard placing himself in-between an aggressive advancing subject as “laid hands on,” and essentially implying that’s battery. Well that depends. Is it reasonable for another to believe that security guard thought that imminent harm was about to occur to his protectees? I personally think so. How do you interpret a person coming towards you saying “get the cameras out of here, or I’m going the $&@¥ you up”? Should a security guard not take that clear threat seriously, and just stand by the wayside? Him intervening and slowing Keltner’s advance isn’t not battery; at least not to me.

He was not licensed armed security, and I cannot wait to see what his training looks like.
By going hands on he set himself up for that kind of confrontation, and he was not wearing a badge so he doesn't get to use lethal force to accomplish his goals when he gets in over his head, nor get any presumption that what he did was in any way legal when it goes south

You can spin it any way you want, but he killed a man for slapping him, all while that man was retreating. If he was being tried in a red state he would be toast, but since he murdered the right kind of victim, like officer Ashli killer, not holding my breath to see justice done

 

[BugI02]

I can agree that not being properly licensed is somewhat problematic, but ultimately, I think the security guard is covered. Most of us have seen two guys about to get into a fight, and some other guy gets between them often placing his hand on one if not both of the idiots. Listening to Bug, it would seem that if one of those guys decked him, they’d be covered because he placed a hand on them while trying to prevent them from engaging in violence. That just doesn’t seem reasonable to me. I’m not saying the guy deserved to be shot, but IMO his overall action and words illustrate that he was clearly the aggressor.

Yet it seems reasonable to you that when he got 'decked', which was a not-unforeseeable prospect, that he can draw on and the immediately kill an unarmed man who is retreating? That's why I made the comparison, they both had laid hands on each other. By your reasoning, either one should be able to draw and fire.

If security boi doesn't know how to conduct himself in a slap fight he's a ***** and needs to retake middle school. IMO he had already decided to fire when he went for his gun. I think his panties were all wadded up because he had been humiliated and he was relying on being armed to make up for his deficit in fighting skills. This wasn't law-abiding citizen attacked and forced to defend himself, this was 170 pound weakling relying on Mr Colt or Gaston to make him equal to the task he set for himself

 

[Hatin Since 87]

Man the mental gymnastics it takes to defend a security guard using lethal force when slapped, but critique an actual law enforcement officer using lethal force when being attacked. That’s why nobody takes the BLM group seriously and never will

 

[Hatin Since 87]

relying on Mr Colt or Gaston to make him equal to the task he set for himself

Wouldn’t that pretty much be the same as slapping him back?

Also, being ***** slapped in a crowd of people would still be less embarrassing than pulling a glock, am I right?

(Sorry, had to)

(also, I carry glock, still funny)

 

[BugI02]

Was he retreating or creating distance? Can we agree that there’s a difference between the two?
It didn’t look to me as if he was wanting to disengage more than it looked like he was moving back to re-engage.
After moving back he then deployed his spray. You think it’s reasonable to believe that he would’ve rather used his spray in a situation where he would’ve almost certainly also sprayed himself, rather than create distance to avoid that? That doesn’t seem tactically sound to me.

All we have right now is a motor drive picture sequence, I certainly hope video exists (maybe that 'news' crew he was 'protecting' so well). Given what I have as evidence, I see no time elapsing between the draw stroke and the shot to assess the situation. That's why I believe he had already made the decision to shoot before or as he went for his firearm

As simply an armed civilian LARPing as armed security, in my state he would be ****ed because he instigated the confrontation and then shot the other party when it looked like he was about to get his *** whipped

Edit: Don't write checks you *** can't cash

 

[Kutnupe14]

He was not licensed armed security, and I cannot wait to see what his training looks like.
By going hands on he set himself up for that kind of confrontation, and he was not wearing a badge so he doesn't get to use lethal force to accomplish his goals when he gets in over his head, nor get any presumption that what he did was in any way legal when it goes south

You can spin it any way you want, but he killed a man for slapping him, all while that man was retreating. If he was being tried in a red state he would be toast, but since he murdered the right kind of victim, like officer Ashli killer, not holding my breath to see justice done

Well Darwin caught up with him. Don't slap a guy, and then try to run away (or break into a building with a guy pointing a gun at you). If he wants to throw down, don't be a %$#@*, and step up if he thinks he Billy Bad A.

 

[jamil]

Quick question. Can you draw down on someone who just, as you put it, “bitch slapped” you?

Can I? You mean legally? That’s sketchy territory. Would a reasonable person believe they were danger to justify lethal force for being bitch-slapped? I think it would take more context than just being bitch slapped to justify drawing down on someone.

 

[jamil]

Well yes. We can see in the picture the spray in the air, and slide recoil. Who do you think pull the trigger first?

Didn't you make that same point before? You could probably just look up our answers then.

 

[chipbennett]

He put himself in a volatile situation, and was overtly aggressive. He got in someone`s face, instigated physical contact, and caused someone, very likely, to fear for their life or physical well being. I`d say the shooting was justified, but again, a jury will sort it out.

And for all those reasons, the shooter is now charged with second degree murder.

(Oh, wait: you were talking about the deceased, I bet... ironic that everything you said applies 180 degrees opposite of how you're interpreting the facts.)

 

[chipbennett]

You’re calling a security guard placing himself in-between an aggressive advancing subject as “laid hands on,” and essentially implying that’s battery. Well that depends. Is it reasonable for another to believe that security guard thought that imminent harm was about to occur to his protectees? I personally think so. How do you interpret a person coming towards you saying “get the cameras out of here, or I’m going the $&@¥ you up”? Should a security guard not take that clear threat seriously, and just stand by the wayside? Him intervening and slowing Keltner’s advance isn’t not battery; at least not to me.

We'll set aside, for the moment, the fact that the shooter was not a legal/legitimate bodyguard/security, per applicable, state statutes/requirements.

Regardless, even if he were, a news crew hiring "security" does not give said, hired security the legal authority to put his hands on someone. The very same use-of-force laws apply to hired security as would apply to any other non-LEO citizen, under the same circumstances.

 

[chipbennett]

Was he retreating or creating distance? Can we agree that there’s a difference between the two?
It didn’t look to me as if he was wanting to disengage more than it looked like he was moving back to re-engage.
After moving back he then deployed his spray. You think it’s reasonable to believe that he would’ve rather used his spray in a situation where he would’ve almost certainly also sprayed himself, rather than create distance to avoid that? That doesn’t seem tactically sound to me.

From the perspective of legal, statutory justification for the use of deadly force in self-defense: is there a difference? No, I do not think that there is. Whatever imminent threat that might have existed (and that is a stretch, assuming that a face slap constitutes an imminent threat of death or great bodily harm) absolutely no longer exists when the would-be threat physically extricates himself from the confrontation (whether "retreating"or "creating distance").

And as for the spray: the shooter was the initial, physical aggressor, and unlawfully made physical contact with the victim. The use of spray in self-defense in that circumstance, thus, would have been legally justified. Ergo, at no time was the shooter legally justified in using deadly force against his victim.

 

[chipbennett]

Quick question. Can you draw down on someone who just, as you put it, “bitch slapped” you?

Likely, insufficient facts or context to answer thoroughly. But, absent that: no, I can't imagine that a mere "bitch slap", alone, would rise to the level of causing reasonable fear of imminent death or great bodily harm.

 

[chipbennett]

Well Darwin caught up with him. Don't slap a guy, and then try to run away (or break into a building with a guy pointing a gun at you). If he wants to throw down, don't be a %$#@*, and step up if he thinks he Billy Bad A.

That might be the Hot Taek of the Day, right there: being unlawfully shot, equated to a Darwin award.