Is PCC the way to go?

[Hawkeye]

I see 2 PCC threads. I’ll ask here because the other seems to have left the tracks. Plus there a a few people here who will have an opinion to this related but slightly off topic question. Brace Ban???? Not talking carbines but rather pistols with braces. They seem to be coming after the ARs in “rifle calibers” with carbine tubes, angled grips, folding buffers, etc. what about the 5”-10” barreled pistols in a “pistol caliber” such as 9mm. How do you think the ATF will view say a Sig MPX or CZ scorpion with a brace?

I know this is hypothetical since ATF will twist the language to suit the political agenda of their handlers. But humor me for a minute. And please don’t gets us locked. Ha ha ha.

I don't have any real knowledge on this, but the impression I get is the BATF is trying to curtail the "AR-piostols" combined with a brace to sort of circumvent the SBR restrictions. I had not heard of them going after PC pistols with braces. But I could be completely off base in my thinking.

 

[VERT]

I don't have any real knowledge on this, but the impression I get is the BATF is trying to curtail the "AR-piostols" combined with a brace to sort of circumvent the SBR restrictions. I had not heard of them going after PC pistols with braces. But I could be completely off base in my thinking.

I don’t know if anybody knows. But I see stuff on YouTube where the talk about PCCs and then evaluate a braced pistol. PC pistols and PC Carbine have become somewhat synonymous. The braced PC Pistols would gain a lot of utility if they remain pistols compared with a traditional SBR. I can travel with a pistol.

 

[KJW]

I will step up and defend PCC's as perfectly acceptable HD weapons. There's no doubt that a PCC is going to be lighter and easier to handle than almost any plausible 5.56 option. My CMMG Banshee is about 5 lbs. My lightest AR is easily over 7 lbs. I am small statured, but very fit. I can dead hang for 2 mins, knock out 50 push ups, 17 pull ups, and run a 6 min mile (I know a bunch of young guys will scoff at that, but I'm 56 yo). That being said, my arm quickly tires holding a full size AR equipped with red dot and light. I don't consider AR 5.56 pistols as plausible options. I've shot a 16" AR from inside a building, with hearing protection obviously, and it's still painfully loud. I don't see a novice shooter tolerating the enormous blast of an AR pistol in 5.56. They certainly are not going to practice sufficiently with it. And that gets to another point in favor of the PCC, it's cheaper to practice with. And this whole discussion, the OP's question, is meaningless if you don't train and practice. A novice, or new shooter is going to train and practice more with a lighter, quieter, and cheaper-to-feed gun.
Another point that I see no one making (I read several pages of comments but not all, so give me a break) is that 9 mm is a perfectly suitable round in the likely scenario a gun would be used. First of all, you are NOT going to be engaging at 100+ yds. Secondly, you are NOT going to be engaging determined, highly trained, battle-hardened troops. You will be engaging at short range, 25 yds or less, and the threats are going to be looters or street thug/criminal types having major FIBSA (Fu#$ I'm Being Shot At) or FIBS (Fu*$ I've BEEN Shot) and scrambling like hell to get out of there. It doesn't have to be 5.56 to achieve those goals.
Here's a link to a video by a former Navy Seal and CIA contractor - spoiler, he picked the PCC.

 

[cbhausen]

I will step up and defend PCC's as perfectly acceptable HD weapons. There's no doubt that a PCC is going to be lighter and easier to handle than almost any plausible 5.56 option. My CMMG Banshee is about 5 lbs. My lightest AR is easily over 7 lbs. I am small statured, but very fit. I can dead hang for 2 mins, knock out 50 push ups, 17 pull ups, and run a 6 min mile (I know a bunch of young guys will scoff at that, but I'm 56 yo). That being said, my arm quickly tires holding a full size AR equipped with red dot and light. I don't consider AR 5.56 pistols as plausible options. I've shot a 16" AR from inside a building, with hearing protection obviously, and it's still painfully loud. I don't see a novice shooter tolerating the enormous blast of an AR pistol in 5.56. They certainly are not going to practice sufficiently with it. And that gets to another point in favor of the PCC, it's cheaper to practice with. And this whole discussion, the OP's question, is meaningless if you don't train and practice. A novice, or new shooter is going to train and practice more with a lighter, quieter, and cheaper-to-feed gun.
Another point that I see no one making (I read several pages of comments but not all, so give me a break) is that 9 mm is a perfectly suitable round in the likely scenario a gun would be used. First of all, you are NOT going to be engaging at 100+ yds. Secondly, you are NOT going to be engaging determined, highly trained, battle-hardened troops. You will be engaging at short range, 25 yds or less, and the threats are going to be looters or street thug/criminal types having major FIBSA (Fu#$ I'm Being Shot At) or FIBS (Fu*$ I've BEEN Shot) and scrambling like hell to get out of there. It doesn't have to be 5.56 to achieve those goals.
Here's a link to a video by a former Navy Seal and CIA contractor - spoiler, he picked the PCC.

It doesn’t bother me a bit but you might want to put a language warning in your post. That having been said, there is a big flaw with this video. It only takes into account rounds which hit your intended target before the interior and exterior wall tests. In order to be complete these tests must include rounds which miss your intended target. These rounds present a far greater threat to innocent bystanders than those which hit the bad guy.

 

[Trevelayan]

I will always maintain that one of the MAJOR advantages of a PCC is that the noise to the shooter is significantly reduced compared to something like an AR pistol. Of course this can be mitigated with suppressors but it's something to consider when choosing a self defense weapon. People underestimate how loud guns are - especially in tight hallways.

 

[dudley0]

I will always maintain that one of the MAJOR advantages of a PCC is that the noise to the shooter is significantly reduced compared to something like an AR pistol. Of course this can be mitigated with suppressors but it's something to consider when choosing a self defense weapon. People underestimate how loud guns are - especially in tight hallways.

The suppressor knocks down some of the sound, but the concussive wave is still there.

I did a non-scientific test with my .300 BO, subs and a can. Went into a bathroom with partially tiled walls. Closed the door and opened the window. Popped a round off and couldn't believe the pressure.

Now, would I respond to that in a critical situation? Not sure. Still stung my ears as well. Quieter than my canned 5.56 running supers, but still like the rounds in it so I keep it at the bed instead.

After a conversation with a more learned buddy yesterday I need to rethink PCC vs carbine vs shotgun vs EDC.

Still have one extra person sleeping in a different room to consider as well

 

[Pfcmaurx]

We may or may not be on the cusp of a civil war or vast civil unrest. For the person who has no shooting skills is PCC the way to go? Why or why not?

With the idea of getting a person with no training as prepared as possible for defending themselves and their family as fast as possible.

I think a PCC is a great option. Most people don’t need to engage out past 50m and a PCC will do wonders with in that range. I have often recommended rifles or PCP w/brace for new shooters as it increases accuracy and it easy to teach them how to use quickly and safely.

 

[ECS686]

I think a PCC is a great option. Most people don’t need to engage out past 50m and a PCC will do wonders with in that range. I have often recommended rifles or PCP w/brace for new shooters as it increases accuracy and it easy to teach them how to use quickly and safely.

The problem with the AR tyoe pistol in a rifle caliber part is for a new shooter not conditioned to the report of a handgun (or any centerfire firearm) just yet, A 10" or less barreled AR (etc) with a brace is probably gonna do them in in short order.

 

[Cameramonkey]

I think a PCC is a great option. Most people don’t need to engage out past 50m and a PCC will do wonders with in that range. I have often recommended rifles or PCP w/brace for new shooters as it increases accuracy and it easy to teach them how to use quickly and safely.

I can hold 8" groups easily offhand with a 1x red dot at 150yds with my carbine length PCC. But you are right. For most people the threat is going to be MUCH closer than that.

 

[Pfcmaurx]

I can hold 8" groups easily offhand with a 1x red dot at 150yds with my carbine length PCC. But you are right. For most people the threat is going to be MUCH closer than that.

The capabilities of a PCC are great and in the right hands can reach out. While a 5.56 will do more damage at longer range new shooters are often most worried about protecting their homes.

what kind of PCC do you have?

 

[Cameramonkey]

The capabilities of a PCC are great and in the right hands can reach out. While a 5.56 will do more damage at longer range new shooters are often most worried about protecting their homes.

what kind of PCC do you have?

Not today ATF! It was lost in a tragic boating accident.

Just kidding. Palmetto State Armory. Not fancy but it works well and they have awesome customer service.

 

[Pfcmaurx]

Not today ATF! It was lost in a tragic boating accident.

Just kidding. Palmetto State Armory. Not fancy but it works well and they have awesome customer service.

I have a PSA as well. They shoot well.

 

[DadSmith]

I bought my PCC for a SHTF hunting rifle. There is a lot of 9mm out there and it will work great for bringing in the meat if that need arises.

 

[Pfcmaurx]

I bought my PCC for a SHTF hunting rifle. There is a lot of 9mm out there and it will work great for bringing in the meat if that need arises.

I thought it was a good option since I’m a Glock guy and my PCC shares mags with pistols.

 

[HonkieKowboy]

Shhh Coach! We need to keep education-resistant newbies with no knowledge and no skills buying 300 Blackout ARs...not further depleting the 9mm pipeline.

We almost had the problem solved...now you come in here and kick the hornets' nest.

We gotta go deeper, 7.62x25 tokar...... oh wait that dried up years ago

 

[Awaters1991]

This a good question. I think the AR would be preferred. There are quite a few good PCC's available now, but some of the more budget friendly ones don't seem to run too well. There are exceptions.

How about a pistol caliber lever gun? Even a 30-30 isn't too hard to handle.

Any platform would work in the end provided the subject will truly pay attention to someone like Coach or Cedertop (or any of the other well qualified mentors).

I built a left handed 9mm PCC for my wife for when I’m not home etc. she seems to enjoy it and 9mm with a can is just so easy to teach with.

 

[Awaters1991]

I consider PCCs for the civilian sector to be a range toy. For LE/Mil they are an extreme niche product for executive protection, vehicles, or suppressed use inside confined spaces. Even in those roles they're a rarity in the age of short-barreled ARs and suppressors.

5.56 AR with a dot is lighter than a 16" PCC in most instances, recoils less, has much lower reciprocating mass, shoots essentially flat out to 250, has better terminal performance, and enjoys lightning fast reloads and LRBHO. You can hand one to a completely new shooter, show them how the safety and bolt release work, and tell them to place the dot on the target and fire. There is no strength or stature requirement beyond the ability to physically lift the rifle. In the pre-rona times this could be accomplished with a $400 off-the-shelf PSA rifle, $100 dot, $20 sling, and a handful of $8 PMAGs. A hundred rounds at the range to zero at 50 and confirm functionality and it's ready to be put into use with no worries.

There are no PCCs that can make comparable claims. Reloading with funsticks is more awkward. They often lack LRBHOs. They are often more expensive. They tend to recoil harder unless you spend much more money on delayed systems. Many PCCs on the market have subpar reliability and require longer testing and function check periods. Pistol calibers are subpar options for killing humans, to speak frankly. At 100 yards you are holding on the target's head, at 150 yards you're holding in the air above the target, and past 150 yards you are planting the butt in the dirt and using a protractor to send indirect fire missions. 5.56 guns with a dot are "what you see is what you get" out past the distance most people can even see a target in perfect conditions, and a novice shooter simply isn't going to grasp the concept of holds or windage without training and practice.

I like PCCs, I like the history, I'm a gun nerd, but even measured against something as plebeian as an off-the-rack 16" PSA rifle with a Holosun, I struggle to find even a single real-world application for choosing any PCC over it. I don't think that's an indictment of the PCC, I think it's a statement of recognition of just how phenomenally good the 5.56 AR platform is.

I mean. A 6” 9mm “pistol” is much easier to use for my wife than a 16” AR with a can. I agree with your points in principal. But I’m more confident in my wife using the pcc with a can of I’m not there to protect the family than an ar if it came down to it.

 

[Awaters1991]

Here is another situation where the PCC comes into play with the inexperienced people, and it illustrates it well.

I have taken at least three inexperienced people to Friday Night Steel, by letting them use a PCC. They are not proficient shooters, so using a pistol would have been much harder, and possibly embarrassed them. A SBR in a pistol caliber with a red dot can make anyone look better than they are. New shooters need to have fun in order to come back. A rifle caliber is not an option for this event.

In a defensive situation, of defend the fort, it’s no different. My wife knows how to shoot, but has zero interest in training or becoming proficient. A suppressed MPX with a 4” barrel will defend her closet.

You and I are in the same boat friend.

 

[Goodcat]

Depends, really. PCCs are fun in 9mm IF suppressed and subsonic 147gr or similar. As far as practicality, all pistol rounds suck in comparison to rifle rounds. The MP7 exists because of the void in incapacitation of the 9mm sub guns over the years. That being said, technology expanded through the years and many have settled on MP7 style solutions, but mostly 10.5-11.5 ARs in 5.56, or 300 BLK. I would not recommend a 9mm PCC for self defense IF suppressed 223 or 300 blk is an option. Otherwise, the 9mm is significantly less deafening inside walls. However, potential hearing loss is the last thing I would personally consider in a life and death situation.

 

[KJQ6945]

Depends, really. PCCs are fun in 9mm IF suppressed and subsonic 147gr or similar. As far as practicality, all pistol rounds suck in comparison to rifle rounds. The MP7 exists because of the void in incapacitation of the 9mm sub guns over the years. That being said, technology expanded through the years and many have settled on MP7 style solutions, but mostly 10.5-11.5 ARs in 5.56, or 300 BLK. I would not recommend a 9mm PCC for self defense IF suppressed 223 or 300 blk is an option. Otherwise, the 9mm is significantly less deafening inside walls. However, potential hearing loss is the last thing I would personally consider in a life and death situation.

It’s all about choosing the right tool for the job at hand, and the original premise was about a new shooter.
If the SHTF, and I have to send my non shooting wife into a closet to defend herself, it will be with a PCC. I have 5.56 SBRs in 10.3” and 11.5”. With a rifle can on them, there as big as 16” rifle with a 20 ounce weight hanging on the muzzle. That’s not practical for a new shooter that weighs 120 pounds. If she can’t hold it up, she’s gonna set it down.
A 4” 9mm with a titanium can is a much smaller, much lighter package. Yes, rifles are much better at killing, but 9mm has sent plenty to the other side.

A pistol caliber carbine in her hand, is more deadly than a rifle caliber that she set down because it’s heavy.

subsonic .300 is a pistol round, similar to .45acp ballistically.