Is PCC the way to go?

[2A_Tom]

.45 ACP is about 950 fps out of a 5" barrel and a bit faster out of my PCC.

I am not sure what the difference is because I don't have a chronometer.

BTW in reference to the OP, my main reason for the PCC route as opposed to a MSR is the magazine compatability with my pistol.

 

[profjeremy]

I think most of the discussion of PCC/PDW/braced pistol has been in the context of 9mm only, but I think that for those concerned with the gaps in "performance" of a 9mm round as compared to a .223 round, keep in mind that 9mm is not nearly the only caliber that PCCs/PDWs come in. I do have a 9mm PDW, but I also have a 10mm PDW with an 8" barrel that significantly narrows that performance gap with ammo rated in the 700-800 ft lb range out of a 5" barrel. Plus we're talking about a hollow point that ends up expanding to .6" or more... definitely starts to make comparison more interesting!

 

[Coach]

The context of the initial post was interesting to me.

Recently I have had a number of individuals who currently do not own and have never owned any firearms ask me "What should I do, what should I get?"

These people are just starting to realize that they might have to protect themselves and their families.

I was hoping to find a way to answer their question.

For myself, I have made my decision and am going to have to live with it, however what is right for me might not be right for them.

I got some new ideas for myself. Lots of info here, but, I did not find an answer to the initial question asked.

Where and what do they start with?

A $4000 battle rifle with suppressor is not a starting point and is beyond most peoples means.

This is the question and it is very real right now these days. I have been wondering what the best answer is. I knew there would be strong opinions and I thought this would grow legs because it is centered on gear and INGO loves to talk about gear, which is fine. It is also about how to get the person the most proficient in a short amount of time with the chosen gear.

 

[Jackson]

This is the question and it is very real right now these days. I have been wondering what the best answer is. I knew there would be strong opinions and I thought this would grow legs because it is centered on gear and INGO loves to talk about gear, which is fine. It is also about how to get the person the most proficient in a short amount of time with the chosen gear.

Maybe the answer is whatever uses a reasonably available and cost-effective cartridge that also has adequate terminal ballistics. Until this recent ammo shortage, 9mm ammunition could be had for $0.18-0.21/round without too much shopping around. .223 was more like what, $0.28-0.35/rnd? That's 33% more ammo to train with at the same budget. More training, in general, equals a higher level of proficiency. Also, some ranges don't allow rifle calibers but will allow allow a PCC. If you can't get 9mm or .223, but you can pick up .30 carbine or .30-30 at wall-mart any day of the week, maybe an M1 Carbine or a lever action gun is a better choice right now just on ammo availability alone. (I don't know if that's true or not. Just a random example.)

The gun matters less than the shooter. That being said, given the choice between a rifle caliber and a pistol caliber in the same platform, I'm probably going to pick the rifle for the reasons people have outlined above.

 

[GIJEW]

It seems to me that the type of PCC/PDW should be semi auto. I think a lever action would have the same 'manual of arms' draw backs that a pump shotgun has. Not a deal breaker with training & practice, but not ideal for a newbie under stress while defending their home.

Higher rate of fire and faster reloads are bonuses

 

[bwframe]

[video=youtube;UDBtldttZJE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDBtldttZJE[/video]

 

[Amishman44]

We may or may not be on the cusp of a civil war or vast civil unrest. For the person who has no shooting skills is PCC the way to go? Why or why not?
With the idea of getting a person with no training as prepared as possible for defending themselves and their family as fast as possible.

Depending on the individual and situation, yes, a pistol-caliber-carbine would probably be the right way to go.
For my wife, who is not a handgun fan, but does prefer a Beretta pistol (she has an older 92FS), I recently picked up a CX-4 9mm for her.
The CX-4 takes the Beretta 92 magazines, so it's much more simple for her to be using just one style magazine, and she likes it.
Sometimes, just keeping things simple is the best method...as it eliminates confusion, which can be a bad thing in a stressful situation.

 

[Trapper Jim]

[video=youtube;UDBtldttZJE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDBtldttZJE[/video]

I thought the jams at 5.59 and 20.19 were interesting. Mobility of this erector set toy at 9.15 leaves a little to be desired. Informative.

 

[ECS686]

Depending on the individual and situation, yes, a pistol-caliber-carbine would probably be the right way to go.
For my wife, who is not a handgun fan, but does prefer a Beretta pistol (she has an older 92FS), I recently picked up a CX-4 9mm for her.
The CX-4 takes the Beretta 92 magazines, so it's much more simple for her to be using just one style magazine, and she likes it.
Sometimes, just keeping things simple is the best method...as it eliminates confusion, which can be a bad thing in a stressful situation.

Lots of truth to this!

I read a statement just a couple days ago (wish I could remember who posted it) that sums up the whole firearms and gadget worlds current state.

They used a fishing example but related it to firearms.

"some entities are more interested in selling fishing lures than teaching people how to fish"

 

[TolusD]

I have a some kerosene to throw onto this one. I just got an FK BRNO PSD in 7.5FK. It fires a 95 grain solid machined copper, discarding leaf hollow point penetrator round at 2000 feet per second and can punch almost any armor out there.

It's like a Dessert Eagle f***ed an AK 47. My wife HATES heavy guns but she loves this thing even though it weighs more than her AR.

 

[Eagle]

Depending on the individual and situation, yes, a pistol-caliber-carbine would probably be the right way to go.
For my wife, who is not a handgun fan, but does prefer a Beretta pistol (she has an older 92FS), I recently picked up a CX-4 9mm for her.
The CX-4 takes the Beretta 92 magazines, so it's much more simple for her to be using just one style magazine, and she likes it.
Sometimes, just keeping things simple is the best method...as it eliminates confusion, which can be a bad thing in a stressful situation.

The Beretta 92 and CX4 is a great combination. I really, really like the pistol style controls on the CX4.

Sierra Papa’s upgrades are awesome, makes the CX4 even better to shoot, and more reliable.

 

[TolusD]

The Beretta 92 and CX4 is a great combination. I really, really like the pistol style controls on the CX4.

Sierra Papa’s upgrades are awesome, makes the CX4 even better to shoot, and more reliable.

I'll 2nd that. I had 2 CX4s in .40cal over the years and both had the full Sierra Papa set of goodies. It's a good gun out of the box, but with the Sierra Papa upgrades it's amazing.

It's enough to make you briefly forget how incredibly ugly a gun it is.

 

[JCSR]

9mm won't do this........

 

[cbhausen]

That tattoo is going to need some touch-up...

 

[Hawkeye]

The context of the initial post was interesting to me.

Recently I have had a number of individuals who currently do not own and have never owned any firearms ask me "What should I do, what should I get?"

These people are just starting to realize that they might have to protect themselves and their families.

I was hoping to find a way to answer their question.

For myself, I have made my decision and am going to have to live with it, however what is right for me might not be right for them.

I got some new ideas for myself. Lots of info here, but, I did not find an answer to the initial question asked.

Where and what do they start with?

A $4000 battle rifle with suppressor is not a starting point and is beyond most peoples means.

I think you are hitting the heart of the matter. I see a lot of tacticool, "operator" style stuff in these posts. SBRs, suppressors, etc all over the posts. IMO, the OP was not aimed at the wannabe operators in the gun community. Heck, I've been a firearms owner for 30 years. Been a gun aficionado for probably 60. I don't own a can or a SBR. Kinda maybe sorta might like to but don't.

I get that a MSR in in .223/5.56 is maybe better than a 9mm or a .455 ACP in most situations. But maybe a newbie potential gun owner is put off by the "scary black rifle" . Maybe they would be more comfortable with something that looks less "aggressive." Maybe the spouse or family would be. who knows.

My thoughts on why a PCC might be a good thing? It's been touched on above. I think having a pistol and a long arm using the same cartridge could be a good thing. /especially if the long-arm can also use the same mag as your pistol. This is why I like the idea fo the Ruger PCC. Now I do not have a pistol in 9mm, so I haven't really pursued this. I tend to like my Govt Model 1911 in .45 ACP so I am REALLY jealous of the guy upthread who has a Marlin Camp Carbine in .45ACP! Maybe someday...

So I do have PCC's - a Trapper Win 94 in .44 Mag and a Model 77 in .44 mag. And I have a couple of wheel guns that match up.

 

[2A-Hoosier23]

I have noticed that new shooters love PCCs. Handguns are hard to shoot accurately, and 22s are fun for a while but at some point, many new shooters want to step up to a more powerful caliber, something with more flash/bang/kick than a 22LR. However, the concussion of mainstream rifles like ARs and AKs can be offputting, as well as sometimes being too heavy (both of these two factors are dependent on the shooter of course).

I've noticed that a PCC, especially one equipped with a red dot, is a great compromise. Not too heavy, and has about the same felt recoil as an AR, but with much less concussion and blast.

I'll 2nd that. I had 2 CX4s in .40cal over the years and both had the full Sierra Papa set of goodies. It's a good gun out of the box, but with the Sierra Papa upgrades it's amazing.

It's enough to make you briefly forget how incredibly ugly a gun it is.

I actually like the way mine looks. Been thinking about painting it white to get the stormtrooper effect I like the way mine shoots too, and love that it eats all kinds of ammo in any conditions. But now to take a look at Sierra Papa upgrades...

 

[TolusD]

I actually like the way mine looks. Been thinking about painting it white to get the stormtrooper effect I like the way mine shoots too, and love that it eats all kinds of ammo in any conditions. But now to take a look at Sierra Papa upgrades...

If you like it now with that awful polymer trigger group and the terrible paper thin polymer buffer, wait until you drop in a polished all metal trigger group and a delrin buffer. Replace everything polymer that's inside the gun and you'll be amazed how much smoother it runs.

A stormtrooper paint job would be really cool I think. If you do that, definitely post pics.

 

[2A-Hoosier23]

If you like it now with that awful polymer trigger group and the terrible paper thin polymer buffer, wait until you drop in a polished all metal trigger group and a delrin buffer. Replace everything polymer that's inside the gun and you'll be amazed how much smoother it runs.

A stormtrooper paint job would be really cool I think. If you do that, definitely post pics.

The trigger on mine isn't great, but not so bad that I'll spend almost $200 improving it. Not that I don't believe it was a worthy upgrade for you or anyone else -- I'm reading on Beretta forums and Sierra Papa's website that the triggers vary from carbine to carbine, so maybe mine isn't as atrocious as yours was. Have the website bookmarked now though if I ever feel like splurging or have any issues with the stock parts, I appreciate you pointing it out.

And I've been toying with the idea of the white paint job for awhile... resale value be damned. Certainly would post some pics here if I ever decide to do it. I think it would be a hit especially with new shooters.

 

[TolusD]

The trigger on mine isn't great, but not so bad that I'll spend almost $200 improving it. Not that I don't believe it was a worthy upgrade for you or anyone else -- I'm reading on Beretta forums and Sierra Papa's website that the triggers vary from carbine to carbine, so maybe mine isn't as atrocious as yours was. Have the website bookmarked now though if I ever feel like splurging or have any issues with the stock parts, I appreciate you pointing it out.

And I've been toying with the idea of the white paint job for awhile... resale value be damned. Certainly would post some pics here if I ever decide to do it. I think it would be a hit especially with new shooters.

The trigger on both of my previous .40s broke between 9 and 10lbs and it did so after a terribly "knobby" uptake that felt like breaking a chicken leg bone. After the upgrade it was like a slightly longer CZ trigger pull of about 4lbs but I polished it down to about 3lbs with Flitz. If you don't change anything else, change out the polymer spring guide to a stainless one. All you have to do it reassemble it just a little wrong just one time and you'll snap that polymer spring guide like a twig.

I run a decked out Scorpion now and I like it just a little more. Mostly because it's not as ugly : ) But also because the folding stock makes it exceptionally maneuverable in close quarters and I can just snap it out and shoot head shots at 100 yards all day if I need to. I really wish they made them in .40 or .45 or even 7.62x25. Modern 9mm is really good but there are a lot of other chamberings that I would rather have. 7.5 FK being the newest that desperately needs a carbine platform built for it.

 

[VERT]

I see 2 PCC threads. I’ll ask here because the other seems to have left the tracks. Plus there a a few people here who will have an opinion to this related but slightly off topic question. Brace Ban???? Not talking carbines but rather pistols with braces. They seem to be coming after the ARs in “rifle calibers” with carbine tubes, angled grips, folding buffers, etc. what about the 5”-10” barreled pistols in a “pistol caliber” such as 9mm. How do you think the ATF will view say a Sig MPX or CZ scorpion with a brace?

I know this is hypothetical since ATF will twist the language to suit the political agenda of their handlers. But humor me for a minute. And please don’t gets us locked. Ha ha ha.