Is PCC the way to go?

Coach

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We may or may not be on the cusp of a civil war or vast civil unrest. For the person who has no shooting skills is PCC the way to go? Why or why not?

With the idea of getting a person with no training as prepared as possible for defending themselves and their family as fast as possible.
 
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obijohn

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Interesting. Why PCC and not AR?

This a good question. I think the AR would be preferred. There are quite a few good PCC's available now, but some of the more budget friendly ones don't seem to run too well. There are exceptions.

How about a pistol caliber lever gun? Even a 30-30 isn't too hard to handle.

Any platform would work in the end provided the subject will truly pay attention to someone like Coach or Cedertop (or any of the other well qualified mentors).
 

Coach

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The question

I ask because of all the possibilities out there this one may not jump out at the primary answer. There are many options with many advantages and disadvantages with each, If you have a short amount of time to equip and then arm this person and you want to get it right what is the best option. Perhaps they are female, someone like my wife who can shoot but does not like to but we may need her as backup or to hold a position. Perhaps it is male like a friend of mine, who spawned this mess in my head, who is former military and a hunter but has zero pistol skills, and many of his hunting rifles and shotguns are not well suited to the task of home defense.

So in considering all of this I pose the question is PCC being over-looked?

I am in the process of trying to arrive at an answer. There might not be a single answer that fits every person or situation.
 

cedartop

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I don't think PCC would be a bad answer. Not sure how available they are right now. I know I am on a waiting list for a couple. Overlooked? Maybe by the general population who may not even know such a thing exists.
 

Cameramonkey

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Maybe, maybe not. My wife shoots her pistol much better than my PCC. She complains that its heavy.


But I understand the theory. I shoot that PCC MUCH more accurately than my pistol beyond 25 yards.
 

Twangbanger

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Shhh Coach! We need to keep education-resistant newbies with no knowledge and no skills buying 300 Blackout ARs...not further depleting the 9mm pipeline.

We almost had the problem solved...now you come in here and kick the hornets' nest.
 

Ark

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I consider PCCs for the civilian sector to be a range toy. For LE/Mil they are an extreme niche product for executive protection, vehicles, or suppressed use inside confined spaces. Even in those roles they're a rarity in the age of short-barreled ARs and suppressors.

5.56 AR with a dot is lighter than a 16" PCC in most instances, recoils less, has much lower reciprocating mass, shoots essentially flat out to 250, has better terminal performance, and enjoys lightning fast reloads and LRBHO. You can hand one to a completely new shooter, show them how the safety and bolt release work, and tell them to place the dot on the target and fire. There is no strength or stature requirement beyond the ability to physically lift the rifle. In the pre-rona times this could be accomplished with a $400 off-the-shelf PSA rifle, $100 dot, $20 sling , and a handful of $8 PMAGs. A hundred rounds at the range to zero at 50 and confirm functionality and it's ready to be put into use with no worries.

There are no PCCs that can make comparable claims. Reloading with funsticks is more awkward. They often lack LRBHOs. They are often more expensive. They tend to recoil harder unless you spend much more money on delayed systems. Many PCCs on the market have subpar reliability and require longer testing and function check periods. Pistol calibers are subpar options for killing humans, to speak frankly. At 100 yards you are holding on the target's head, at 150 yards you're holding in the air above the target, and past 150 yards you are planting the butt in the dirt and using a protractor to send indirect fire missions. 5.56 guns with a dot are "what you see is what you get" out past the distance most people can even see a target in perfect conditions, and a novice shooter simply isn't going to grasp the concept of holds or windage without training and practice.

I like PCCs, I like the history, I'm a gun nerd, but even measured against something as plebeian as an off-the-rack 16" PSA rifle with a Holosun, I struggle to find even a single real-world application for choosing any PCC over it. I don't think that's an indictment of the PCC, I think it's a statement of recognition of just how phenomenally good the 5.56 AR platform is.
 

VERT

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Interesting question. I think the PCC is overlooked. For me they seem more practical. I rarely shoot further then 50 yards and the PCC allows me to shoot paper or steel. Plus until recently I was not setup to reload .223. I think a person armed with a quality 9mm carbine and 9mm handgun has the advantage of only dealing with one type of ammunition.

Recently I traded my spare AR carbine for a PCC. Yes I only had the two, we actually do not own many guns in our household and I was wanting a more capable firearm for my wife. She is a good shooter but doesn’t practice much. She has little to no experience with long guns. She is left handed, arthritic and her right (weak hand) and right elbow have both been injured in the past. The Second AR would have been fine but I decided the PCC made more sense. Controls are similar to the AR so would still make a nice spare gun for me, recoil and noise are reduced (direct blow back models have more recoil then a DI .223), completely ambidextrous, adjustable VFG to help her with her bad hand, easy to swap the sling for either hand, shares the same ammo as her handguns. I had no problem keeping shots on a 2/3 IPSC target at 100 yards which is about as far as my bifocal wearing eyes can see anyway.

Sig MPX. Yes they are a little pricey. Especially the magazines. What little time I have spent with the gun I think it is a fine option. Little heavy but no worse then the AR it replaced. Very light recoil, easy to handle. This one needs a better trigger but I don’t think I am going to mess with that until 2021.



CED277D6-1176-4610-919B-293F081F0FEB.jpg
 

ajeandy

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Wouldn't be my first choice, especially if I'm trusting someone with little experience to "hold a position..."

If they had to actually shoot at someone and they had little experience then I'd hope if they hit them, that they'd be able to stop the threat with one hit ideally....PCC wouldn't be as good at doing that as 223/556/300/762/etc (any major rifle caliber)

There's also virtually no recoil on 223/5.56 so I'm not sure why one would choose something like 9mm pcc over an AR. This is also assuming you have a choice between the two, like if you have both options and the option not chosen would be left unused at the time.

That being said, I have both lol
 

bwframe

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I'm in the 5.56 AR crowd. PCC's are great for training and games to mimic your real rifle. For SD though, my rifle needs to be a rifle caliber.

Military and law enforcement all use 5.56 AR's except for the specialized situations.

Like the pistol or not, everyone should be accustomed to carrying one all the time every day. Any long gun will not be carried around all the time. It will be laid down.

A pistol on the belt is a pistol on the belt. It's the one you always have.
 
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Steel and wood

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I think a newbie would see a pcc as a little simpler less intimidating than a black scary assault rifle. Easy to handle and for close range 50 yrds. And under would be fine. And yes there is more recoil from a blow back pcc. But a fine weapon
 

SOUP

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If you're loaning guns out to untrained people I suggest getting them trained ASAP. It's not too late. A simple handgun course goes a long way in basics of a firearms and safety. If that's not an option teach them everything you know yourself. The last thing you want to do is wait for things to get worse and suddenly expect them to defend you or themselves with tools they don't know or understand how to use.

As for PCC. I agree with everything ARK said.

Also, keep in mind 5.56 and 233 penetrate less, through walls, floors, etc. than 9mm in most instances from research and studies. Take that info for what it's worth.
 

Jackson

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5.56 AR with a dot is lighter than a 16" PCC in most instances, recoils less, has much lower reciprocating mass, shoots essentially flat out to 250, has better terminal performance, and enjoys lightning fast reloads and LRBHO. You can hand one to a completely new shooter, show them how the safety and bolt release work, and tell them to place the dot on the target and fire. There is no strength or stature requirement beyond the ability to physically lift the rifle. In the pre-rona times this could be accomplished with a $400 off-the-shelf PSA rifle, $100 dot, $20 sling, and a handful of $8 PMAGs. A hundred rounds at the range to zero at 50 and confirm functionality and it's ready to be put into use with no worries.

This is a somewhat more elaborate version of the answer I would have given.
 
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KJQ6945

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I ask because of all the possibilities out there this one may not jump out at the primary answer. There are many options with many advantages and disadvantages with each, If you have a short amount of time to equip and then arm this person and you want to get it right what is the best option. Perhaps they are female, someone like my wife who can shoot but does not like to but we may need her as backup or to hold a position. Perhaps it is male like a friend of mine, who spawned this mess in my head, who is former military and a hunter but has zero pistol skills, and many of his hunting rifles and shotguns are not well suited to the task of home defense.

So in considering all of this I pose the question is PCC being over-looked?

I am in the process of trying to arrive at an answer. There might not be a single answer that fits every person or situation.

Here is another situation where the PCC comes into play with the inexperienced people, and it illustrates it well.

I have taken at least three inexperienced people to Friday Night Steel, by letting them use a PCC. They are not proficient shooters, so using a pistol would have been much harder, and possibly embarrassed them. A SBR in a pistol caliber with a red dot can make anyone look better than they are. New shooters need to have fun in order to come back. A rifle caliber is not an option for this event.

In a defensive situation, of defend the fort, it’s no different. My wife knows how to shoot, but has zero interest in training or becoming proficient. A suppressed MPX with a 4” barrel will defend her closet.
 

Trapper Jim

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Rifles are always easier to train the noobs to hit especially in CQC. It does however come down to using what one has in the moment. Only idealistic ramblings make for having the right gun for the right occasion. Training, Training and more Training with Practice, Practice and more Practice with all 3 platforms makes more sense for me. There is no time for " excuse me, I have to get the right gun for this." Or like the dying victims last words "I couldn't find my dot." Trade offs in using PCC in CQC will be 3 times the exposure of your vitals, tying up both arms and hands, less fluid agility especially with big sticks, etc. My formula has always been, Rifles for taking the hill, Duo purpose shotgun for the multiple invaders and Perimeter room defense, and handgun for CQC. Civil Unrest is a runaway freight train. If it happens to a large scale, one can win a small battle but will wonder what he fought for as it will not go away in a few seconds and everything will be Mary Poppins again. IMHO of course.
 

NHT3

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Something similar to this is my choice and reliability is not an issue with a Glock or M&P on board. With a red dot on top you can hand it to someone with little skill and they can get hits with it. 10 or 12 " AR pistol with a red dot is a good choice but I find the noise can put a new shooter off.

[FONT=&amp]NRA Life Member / Basic pistol instructor/ RSO[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]"Under pressure, you don't rise to the occasion, you sink to the level of your training. That's why we train so hard" [/FONT][FONT=&amp]
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Unnamed Navy Seal[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]“Ego is the reason many men do not shoot competition. They don't want to suck in public” ….Coach[/FONT]

 

Trapper Jim

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Sure. We cover it in Fundamentals. Workspace for manipulating handgun is much more protective of your own vitals than rifle. Not to mention your immediate six.
 
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