Is PCC the way to go?

[cedartop]

I am thinking this topic needs some research.

Why do you need any research? Trapper Jim already gave you the answer.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Maybe it will help to think target transition with a rifle in a phone booth.. but maybe all your fights start 10 feet away?

 

[Ggreen]

Shotguns are basically never the answer. It requires a massive amount of skill and training to even come close to being competitive with a carbine.

Pistols are not easy. You Hanne basically the same exposure with a pistol that you have with a carbine. Unless your in a portolet. Pistols have relatively limited capacity, and limited ballistics compared to a carbine. Pistols are great to carry, but if I'm in an extended defensive situation I'll take a carbine any day.

PCC has limited ballistics compared to a comparable rifle cartridge carbine. Also ammo has some interesting things it does with the extra velocity, sometimes fragmenting before it really penetrates. Making even cheaper armor really effective.

So all 3 are useful but compromises.

My current choice is a 14.5" 6.5grendel 123gr
Muzzle velocity around 2400 FPS, around 1500 ft/lbs
Its a compact package with ambi controls, so shooting from cover is easy and fluid. Handles just a bit more violently than my 16"ar9.

It all comes down to a numbers game. Velocity and energy, capacity, and split times. A good rifle caliber ar is always the winner when it comes to having a choice.

 

[VERT]

G. You have a lot of good points.

Agreed, Shotguns for the inexperienced is not a good choice. However, setup correctly with the right combination of ammunition might be the most universally versatile choice amongst the long guns. But that really does not pertain to the original question and I am off topic.

You bring up an interesting point about the extra velocity from the PCC compared to the same cartridge being fired from a handgun. The extra 100-200 FPS makes the bullets behave differently. Bullets designed for handgun velocities might give up penetration. This of course depends on the ammo and gun combination as some of the PCCs are just long barreled handguns or use some sort of fake barrel or brake of sorts to meet the 16” requirement. I have to keep it simple and compare 9mm or .40 out of the longer barrel to .357 Sig or 10mm from a handgun. Nasty, rough comparison but similar. Interestingly enough I can think of at least two LE departs that gave up their MP5s due to problems with over penetration. PCCs with 124 grain ball ammo will work over soft armor pretty well.

I also know of one department that adopted the Sig MPX instead of .223. This was because one of the ranges they were using did not allow rifle cartridges. This is becoming more of an issue with city police departments. Also they switched to 9mm handguns to help with the inventory of ammo. So PCCs are not rifle cartridges. But there are some valid reasons for their adoption.

 

[Trapper Jim]

The key here in the OP is equipping untrained peeps with PCC’s during a civil unrest movement. A trained rifle unit can advance and/or protect the compound but only with watching and protecting each other’s 3 ft circle. As a mob thinking like wolves advancing on an untrained long gun, they quite simply can throw the unsuspecting fellow mobster/citizen into the muzzle, while then advancing in to remove the jugular. There are good scenario based training opportunities but all useless without good marksmanship no matter what you equip the noob with.

 

[ECS686]

I'll say while sure a 5.56 would be preferred the PCC has a place. I think I'm on topic here but I'll answer this as the scenerio is a new or novice shooter and you have minimal time to bring up to some kind of speed. Novice or first time shooters there is a little less of a learning curve with a long gun and a good RDS is easier to teach than irons in a pinch.

The other factor especially with small stature shooters some folks will not be as intimidated by a PCC a i has less blast than an AR. While most of us have no issue with rifles I just retired from an agency that qualified everyone from seasoned SORT guys to the once a year because they make them secretary. And some people can't get over the M4/16 but the same people had no issue with the 9mm Colt SMG we used. I am convinced it was because of the pistol caliber and lighter weight.

PCC can have a place as its better than a handgun for some users. There are some that have zero interest in becoming "proficient" but need something .

DA revolvers are often criticized but thete are still many many never shoot at all users that learned years ago and have used them when needed So I wouldn't rule anything out.

 

[Coach]

Just information on weight. Ark got me thinking about weight.

I have two AR's in the safe but neither are 16 inch barrels.

Iron sighted AR with sling weighed 8.5 pounds.
AR with scope and sling weighed 8.9 pounds.

PSA PCC with PSA dot weighed 6.5 pounds.
Ruger takedown carbine wighed 6.9 pounds.

Once again just information. Not sure how big a deal the weight is.

 

[Coach]

FYI as well I am trying to arrange for some new shooters to do some testing.

 

[woowoo2]

For me it was simple.
Get a long gun that uses the same mags / ammo as my current pistol, or go with another caliber?
Thus, the Ruger PCC was it.

 

[Tactically Fat]

Generally speaking, long gun is more betterer than short gun.

4 points of contact on a long gun is more betterer than 2 points of contact on a pistol.

Intermediate caliber will generally be more betterer than pistol caliber.

Battle rifle caliber may be more betterer than intermediate caliber.

But it's all mission specific.

Let the mission define the gear.

 

[spencer rifle]

For me it was simple.
Get a long gun that uses the same mags / ammo as my current pistol, or go with another caliber?
Thus, the Ruger PCC was it.

Me, too. Long ago I decided on the Ruger P-series DC models for pistol - good capacity and rock-sloid reliable. I have never had reason to revise this. So the (old) Ruger P9 was the logical choice. Just as reliable and took the same mags. Some have the factory ghost ring sights and some have a rail and optic. They all are somewhat heavy for what they are, but that is offset by other factors.
When we added Gen 1 Sub 2000 to the mix, there was no P-series option, so we got the S&W model and adapted the existing mags. Now they all share. Disadvantage? They are mostly not ambi.
One of our main helpers is a lefty, so he may be confined to the X95 or the RFB (though the Calico is completely ambi).

 

[Cameramonkey]

Me, too. Long ago I decided on the Ruger P-series DC models for pistol - good capacity and rock-sloid reliable. I have never had reason to revise this. So the (old) Ruger P9 was the logical choice. Just as reliable and took the same mags. Some have the factory ghost ring sights and some have a rail and optic. They all are somewhat heavy for what they are, but that is offset by other factors.
When we added Gen 1 Sub 2000 to the mix, there was no P-series option, so we got the S&W model and adapted the existing mags. Now they all share. Disadvantage? They are mostly not ambi.
One of our main helpers is a lefty, so he may be confined to the X95 or the RFB (though the Calico is completely ambi).

Lefties can use a right handed gun just fine. Provided they train using standard RH guns, they wont have an issue. That is unless you intend to take a militant attitude that there is only ONE way to operate the gun. (e.g. you may ONLY release the mag with your middle finger and NEVER the thumb)

(or you hand them a bullpup rifle)

 

[KJQ6945]

Generally speaking, long gun is more betterer than short gun.

4 points of contact on a long gun is more betterer than 2 points of contact on a pistol.

Intermediate caliber will generally be more betterer than pistol caliber.

Battle rifle caliber may be more betterer than intermediate caliber.

But it's all mission specific.

Let the mission define the gear.

QFT!
A Barrett .50 is way more powerful than a pistol caliber carbine, but bigger, isn’t always what’s needed. I get the feeling some of you guys only own one hammer. Driving finish nails with a sledge hammer must be tricky.

 

[GIJEW]

My
IMO you can't "cover the bases" without having BOTH a handgun and long gun/PCC but I think a PCC would be an ideal primary arm for a newbie, with a handgun in its proper place as backup.
Aside from increased hit potential, one consideration is having the arm being "mission based". If there's rioting and mayhem in the streets, your average newbie--and most of us--is going to be at home on defense.
For home defense:
A compact weapon the size of a submachine gun or AR pistol is ideal for fighting inside a structure
Even if HD involves shooting at assailants outside, it's probably not going to be much further than 50yds, so a 10" pistol isn't too handicapped by POI vs POA
Aside from multiple points of contact, PCCs are relatively more adaptable for using red dot sights, flash lights, and lazers.

For vehicle defense if you need to bug out, a handgun is obviously better for
1 hand use while driving
Holster carry and being there when you werent expecting to need it
Being the low profile gray man

 

[GIJEW]

QFT!
A Barrett .50 is way more powerful than a pistol caliber carbine, but bigger, isn’t always what’s needed. I get the feeling some of you guys only own one hammer. Driving finish nails with a sledge hammer must be tricky.

I think you were just looking for an excuse to be argumentative
TF said "But it's all mission driven. Let the mission define the gear."

 

[MontereyC6]

Another point to this, a PCC doesn't have to be a longer gun. Personally, I have 2 Sig MPX's. A 4
5" barrel SBR and a 8" pistol. I could give either to my wife, with a suppressor attached, and she will be fine with it. Low recoil, low noise. It's about perfect for her.

 

[VERT]

Another point to this, a PCC doesn't have to be a longer gun. Personally, I have 2 Sig MPX's. A 4
5" barrel SBR and a 8" pistol. I could give either to my wife, with a suppressor attached, and she will be fine with it. Low recoil, low noise. It's about perfect for her.

An 8” MPX Pistol makes a lot of sense as a compact travel option that would also be new shooter friendly.

 

[Ggreen]

There is 800-1000 FPS difference between an 8" 9mm vs 223 in favor of the 223. A flash can or suppressor makes them pretty tame. In the 100 yards and under rapid response category I have really grown to like the 7.5 223. I've got a 12" gas operated 45acp ar sbr with a can. Having little kids in the house I want to keep their hearing protected.

The 7.5 ar has really grown in me after training with simunition around the house... It's a mess and i have to run the essential oil diffusers for a while before my wife gets home lol.

 

[KJQ6945]

I think you were just looking for an excuse to be argumentative
TF said "But it's all mission driven. Let the mission define the gear."

I didn’t state it well enough I guess. Not trying to be argumentative at all. I agree with TF, and let the mission drive the gear, 100%. I am a firm believer in, use the right tool for the job. In my mind, sub machine gun sized weapons have a very useful role to play.

 

[KJQ6945]

I took this picture a few years ago for a similar thread. It’s just to illustrate the size differences that are available. Life is about having options for different situations. Top is a basic 16” rifle, then a 10.3”, then the pistol calibers. The MPX at the bottom has a 4” barrel, and the whole gun is less than 16”. It makes for a very compact and accurate rifle, that is lightweight and very manageable in tight quarters.