Defending against dogs with lethal force?

[Kirk Freeman]

Animals run out into traffic all the time, it's not worth your lives or other to avoid them if it puts you or others in danger.

Though I did scare the heck out of a trucker avoiding a deer while driving a Corvette...that things would have come right through my windshield.

Do NOT honk your horn at them. This is the deer "it's on" signal.

Had yearling jump out in front of me on I-65. Slowed and then honked at him thinking he would scamper off like Disney cartoon.

Nope, this is the deer challenge signal. He charged me and right down the driver's side of the Montero he went.

 

[Liberty Sanders]

As I recall that situation, in addition to it being a "warning shot", the dogs were on the other side of a fence and were not directly threatening any person. And the shooter was a former LEO; IMO, he should have known better.

BTW, I'm familiar with the location where it happened and am aware of the history of the person who owned the dogs - wacko.

The moral of that story, and many others, is either shoot to end an actual threat, or keep the gun holstered. Does anyone know of a situation where a "warning shot" was fired and it ended well?

You recall the situation incorrectly.

The dogs were not on the other side of a fence and were directly attacking the victim.

 

[T.Lex]

 

[printcraft]

Meanwhile, in Carmel...

 

[JettaKnight]

Let's do the math, F=MV2

Weight of Buick Park Avenue=>3,800 pounds

Velocity=>IIRC speed limit on 4th street (I walked to and from work at courthouse from Vantage Point, 827-11 South 4th) is 30MPH where I was (just north of Miller Elementary where the train tracks used to be for my fellow Lafayette INGOers).

So . . . yeah, that's lot better than a .40S&W Black Talon bullet.

F=MA

And calculating the acceleration in this event would be really, really hard.


So let's just look at energy:

E = (MV^2)/2

Not all of the energy transferred, so you'll have to use V1 - V2, where those represent the speed immediately prior, and immediately after impact.

30 mph is 13.4112 m/s, let's assume that the impact caused the vehicle to slow to 13 m/s - from 30mph to 29mph. (complete WAG on that).

E = (1750 kg * 0.4112m/s * .4112m/s) / 2
E = 148 Joules

That's just over 109 ft/lbs, or about 1/3 of the muzzle energy of a 230gr .45 ACP.

(yup, I'm a nerd)

 

[T.Lex]

(yup, I'm a nerd)

Not until you've posted in the Science Fiction story thread.

 

[JettaKnight]

Not until you've posted in the Science Fiction story thread.

I specifically didn't.

 

[LP1]

You recall the situation incorrectly.

The dogs were not on the other side of a fence and were directly attacking the victim.

Thanks for the clarification. I'll bet you were happy when he moved away.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

IC 35-46-3-12:

A person who knowingly or intentionally kills a domestic animal without the consent of the owner of the domestic animal commits killing a domestic animal, a Level 6 felony.
(e) It is a defense to a prosecution under this section that the accused person:
(1) reasonably believes the conduct was necessary to:
(A) prevent injury to the accused person or another person;
(B) protect the property of the accused person from destruction or substantial damage;  or
(C) prevent a seriously injured vertebrate animal from prolonged suffering;  or
(2) engaged in a reasonable and recognized act of training, handling, or disciplining the vertebrate animal.

Note you can protect your property. Your dog is your property. Someone else's dog is not your property. Will a prosecutor draw a distinction? Do you care enough to find out?

Side note: If you carry a gun around the house, you never run out of the house unarmed. Stash guns suck. Carry guns are good. Something like an LCR is easy for even lazy slob pajamas carry.

Side side note: Dogs often ignore CS or treat it like water to the face. OC is more likely to get a pain response. Take a look at the active ingredients of dog repellant sprays and you'll see it's all OC or equivalent. Sprays made for humans are often a mix. Human spray often doesn't do much to dogs depending on the ratio, so plan accordingly. Don't rely on it to work on a dog or a person who is actually aggressive vs non-compliant.

 

[MCgrease08]

C) prevent a seriously injured vertebrate animal from prolonged suffering;  or

My takeaway from this is that the intent is that one could put down an injured animal to prevent it from suffering. I wonder if one could reasonably make a case that they shot another animal because it was attacking a vertebrate animal, causing injury and they ended the attack in an effort to prevent prolonged suffering of the animal being attacked.

 

[DadSmith]

I'm taking care of my son's pitbull male. He's cocky but when it comes down to it he reminds me of Drover from Hank the cow dog series. My female flat coated retriever got into a fight with a coyote a few weeks ago. She had it pinned to the ground tearing into it. Drover was 15 yards away acting mean but a chicken to go help. I grabbed my shield 45 because it was the closest. As I got near the coyote seen me coming and did its best to run away I called off my dog to get a shot. But it was dark and Mr coyote was fast.

She got her neck tore up enough I had to shave her hair on her neck and treated it and had to give her 7 days antibiotics. She likes to fight. My son's pit bull is a big baby. He likes to cuddle lol.

I think a lot of problems is how people raise them. You raise them mean they will be. Just my opinion of course.

 

[DadSmith]

IC 35-46-3-12:

A person who knowingly or intentionally kills a domestic animal without the consent of the owner of the domestic animal commits killing a domestic animal, a Level 6 felony.
(e) It is a defense to a prosecution under this section that the accused person:
(1) reasonably believes the conduct was necessary to:
(A) prevent injury to the accused person or another person;
(B) protect the property of the accused person from destruction or substantial damage;  or
(C) prevent a seriously injured vertebrate animal from prolonged suffering;  or
(2) engaged in a reasonable and recognized act of training, handling, or disciplining the vertebrate animal.

Note you can protect your property. Your dog is your property. Someone else's dog is not your property. Will a prosecutor draw a distinction? Do you care enough to find out?

Side note: If you carry a gun around the house, you never run out of the house unarmed. Stash guns suck. Carry guns are good. Something like an LCR is easy for even lazy slob pajamas carry.

Side side note: Dogs often ignore CS or treat it like water to the face. OC is more likely to get a pain response. Take a look at the active ingredients of dog repellant sprays and you'll see it's all OC or equivalent. Sprays made for humans are often a mix. Human spray often doesn't do much to dogs depending on the ratio, so plan accordingly. Don't rely on it to work on a dog or a person who is actually aggressive vs non-compliant.

I have a question on these felony levels how many are there and what level is the worst felony to the least? I tried looking it up but I'm not finding anything unless it's from another state which probably isn't the same as Indiana.

 

[churchmouse]

OK fellas.....

 

[Leadeye]

Here in the outland most apply the 3 S rule.

 

[Thor]

Do NOT honk your horn at them. This is the deer "it's on" signal.

Had yearling jump out in front of me on I-65. Slowed and then honked at him thinking he would scamper off like Disney cartoon.

Nope, this is the deer challenge signal. He charged me and right down the driver's side of the Montero he went.

Yeah, it was in WI. I'm not sure if the shrieking tires had the same effect. The herbivores are stupid...flat dumb stupid. I hit one about every two years I lived there. I didn't get a turkey through the windshield though like one fellow I saw.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I have a question on these felony levels how many are there and what level is the worst felony to the least? I tried looking it up but I'm not finding anything unless it's from another state which probably isn't the same as Indiana.

For anything other than Murder: 6 levels with 1 being the most serious and 6 the least.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

F=MA

And calculating the acceleration in this event would be really, really hard.


So let's just look at energy:

E = (MV^2)/2

Not all of the energy transferred, so you'll have to use V1 - V2, where those represent the speed immediately prior, and immediately after impact.

30 mph is 13.4112 m/s, let's assume that the impact caused the vehicle to slow to 13 m/s - from 30mph to 29mph. (complete WAG on that).

E = (1750 kg * 0.4112m/s * .4112m/s) / 2
E = 148 Joules

That's just over 109 ft/lbs, or about 1/3 of the muzzle energy of a 230gr .45 ACP.

(yup, I'm a nerd)

Erm, not quite exactly right... the ΔE is not the E of the ΔV.

ΔE = E₁ - E₂
ΔE= ((1750 kg * 13.4112 m/s * 13.4112 m/s)/2) - ((1750 kg * 13 m/s * 13 m/s)/2)
ΔE = 314,755.5 J - 295,750 J = 19,005.5 J

That's 14,018 ft-lbs or about 3 mag dumps from a Glock 21.

@Kirk Freeman that was a bit excessive.

 

[roscott]

OK fellas.....

Is the alluded to incident verboten?

I’m cool if it is, honestly kinda pisses me off when I recall the whole thing.

 

[churchmouse]

Is the alluded to incident verboten?

I’m cool if it is, honestly kinda pisses me off when I recall the whole thing.

Well seeing as both the guys are in this thread lets not go there OK.

 

[churchmouse]

Erm, not quite exactly right... the ΔE is not the E of the ΔV.

ΔE = E₁ - E₂
ΔE= ((1750 kg * 13.4112 m/s * 13.4112 m/s)/2) - ((1750 kg * 13 m/s * 13 m/s)/2)
ΔE = 314,755.5 J - 295,750 J = 19,005.5 J

That's 14,018 ft-lbs or about 3 mag dumps from a Glock 21.

@Kirk Freeman that was a bit excessive.