To Mask or Not to Mask?

[JettaKnight]

What Ingomike said. The vast majority of illnesses, let alone deaths have been those who are older and/or with multiple comorbidities. Those catching it and having any serious effects who are healthy are an extremely low percentage. Yes, it's more serious than the flu, but not enough so to justify the lockdowns, mask mandates and serious economic repercussions from our overreaction.

That's something I won't argue with.

For all that think this a Dem. power play, how exactly do you explain that almost every other country in the entire world is dealing with a pandemic too? I'm watching an f'ed Formula 1 schedule this year because they can't have crowds at the races. Do the democrats really control auto racing?! Do you seriously think that Nancy Pelosi just picked up the phone and told [insert foreign country leader here] to force their citizens to play along so that he can help Joe Biden get elected?

 

[bobzilla]

That's something I won't argue with.

I’ve never said it was a dem power play. I’m not that naive. It has been a power play. A global one. Those in power seeing a chance to grab more of it. That is something I would believe.

 

[JettaKnight]

I’ve never said it was a dem power play. I’m not that naive. It has been a power play. A global one. Those in power seeing a chance to grab more of it. That is something I would believe.

So the leaders of all the world's countries got on a Zoom call with each other to...



You're ascribing too much intelligence and cooperation.

 

[idkfa]

... Do the democrats really control auto racing?! ...

I'll bite.
Naturally, Democrats do not control European, Australian or Russian governments.
This is a basic -- and cringey -- straw man invocation.

This situation is quite complex, and we simply do not have any direct evidence to ascribe fault or intent with certainty.

First, the amount of publicly accessible indirect evidence (Agenda 21, Agenda 2030, 2010 Rockefeller Foundation Scenarios for the Future of Technology and International Development, etc.) overwhelmingly points to a substantial number of special interests who expected and -- most importantly -- craved such a crisis.

In other words, many governments are trying to not let this "good crisis" go to waste.
Some examples:
1) China initiated the lockdown, influenced the WHO to promote similar -- or harsher -- responses in Western countries, and then lifted their lockdown promptly.
As a consequence, they are the only ones whose economy has not only not shrunk, but actually grown.
2) Putin imposed a lockdown -- and changed the voting procedure for the referendum on the "Amendments" to the Russian Constitution.
Specifically, in-person voting at the polling stations was deemed too dangerous. Instead, a car would roll up to an apartment complex, pop a trunk revealing a "sealed" cardboard ballot box, and people would cast their ballots into said box... because it is safer. Naturally.
Right after the (naturally, successful) "referendum" the lockdown restrictions were lifted.
3) Currently, Russian gov't is closing things down again.
Why? Well, Putin is (1) scared of dying, (2) does not trust Western vaccines (he's paranoid), and thus Russian vaccine completed Phase 2 the first (I believe) in the world a while back.
Phase 3 is tricky, because it requires not only large number of people, but a relatively lengthy time as well.
FWIW, in my opinion, Putin is trying to "replace" time with people, i.e. inject as many as he can to find any and all possible adverse effects and thus "shrink" the timeline.
For that, he needs to make "early vaccination" a condition of return to normal life for most (ideally, all) people.

Second, good old idiocy should never be discounted. Generations of c-o-c-k-s-u-c-k-e-r-s replaced each other in public offices wordwide without having to do much of anything, but collect a paycheck and do the bidding of their election sponsors.
Now they were faced with an alleged "pandemic", and their composure -- whatever they had -- fell completely apart. They immediately caved to the loudest and dumbest voices who quoted "experts" such as WHO, Fauci, and the notorious Neil Ferguson.
Quite a few (seemingly) people in Indiana -- of all places -- are still clamoring for a complete lockdown, and our poor excuse for a governor is doing their bidding.
Better safe than sorry, eh? /s

Third, the ripple effect and threat of litigation.
Most (if not all) grocery chains imposed the same exact procedures for all their stores nationwide, regardless of local regulations.
From a litigation standpoint, it is always wise to adhere to the gov't prescribed policy and procedure, regardless of how little sense it makes.
In an environment of total panic it is arguably even more important.
Alternatively, it is safest to simply suspend all operations -- if the business model and profit margins so permit.

And so on and so forth.
The amount of flip-flopping, back-flipping on most (if not all) key issues (nature of the virus, masks, and now lockdowns themselves) and the lack of any difference what-so-ever between localities that implemented some, all, or none of the measures point to this:
1) yes, virus is real (although the CDC does not have any "quantified virus isolates of the 2019-nCoV", page 39);
2) mortality is very low, and (much) lower than flu in most productive people;
3) any and all restrictions imposed on general population are driven either by utter incompetence or political agenda.

 

[JettaKnight]

That's all good, but it doesn't explain how any of this is a part of a plan to win the election, as has been espoused by many here.


Holcomb hasn't improved his chances of being reelected through this "power grab". Nor Whitmer.


AFAIK, most folks don't think Biden could have or will do better.

 

[bobzilla]

That's all good, but it doesn't explain how any of this is a part of a plan to win the election, as has been espoused by many here.


Holcomb hasn't improved his chances of being reelected through this "power grab". Nor Whitmer.


AFAIK, most folks don't think Biden could have or will do better.

my suggestion would be to ask those that said such things instead of everyone.

 

[wtburnette]

How about crashing the economy right before an election to make the incumbent look bad? Then there's all the dem and media hysteria of how Trump screwed the pooch on the response and the deaths and economy are all his fault. Biden came out and blamed Trump for every single death. You don't think that's all on purpose? You don't think they're trying to use that to influence the election?

 

[wtburnette]

I maintain that if this weren't an election year, or if this was under any presidency other than Trump, we would have had the country re-opened long before now and I doubt we would have had a mask mandate at all. If we did I doubt it would have lasted past "flatten the curve".

 

[swampdonkey]

When I think it is appropriate.

Because freedom.

And when my wife tells me to.

Because marriage.

ha!!! The smartest man in here for sure!

it is a tough one though, I have done a lot of digging on this topic and believe there is some science behind it when combined with social distancing. I just struggle with the idea of it personally......

 

[JettaKnight]

I saw that and thought T.Lex was back from his sabbatical.

 

[JettaKnight]

I maintain that if this weren't an election year, or if this was under any presidency other than Trump, we would have had the country re-opened long before now and I doubt we would have had a mask mandate at all. If we did I doubt it would have lasted past "flatten the curve".

How about crashing the economy right before an election to make the incumbent look bad? Then there's all the dem and media hysteria of how Trump screwed the pooch on the response and the deaths and economy are all his fault. Biden came out and blamed Trump for every single death. You don't think that's all on purpose? You don't think they're trying to use that to influence the election?

Then how do you explain how pretty much every other 1st world country is in the same boat?

 

[wtburnette]

idkfa explains that pretty well. It made perfect sense to shut things down, at least partly, at the beginning of all this, but we're at least 6 months past where that makes any sense. Hell, even the WHO is now admitting the repercussions of the lockdowns are worse then the virus itself.

 

[idkfa]

That's all good, but it doesn't explain how any of this is a part of a plan to win the election, as has been espoused by many here.

Fair point.
I suppose, it really boils down that
1) what people are really trying to say,
2) what they're saying, and
3) how their words are interpreted
are three different things.

For example:

I maintain that if this weren't an election year, or if this was under any presidency other than Trump, we would have had the country re-opened long before now and I doubt we would have had a mask mandate at all. If we did I doubt it would have lasted past "flatten the curve".

Here, wtburnette is clearly referring to how an existing pandemic was presented to the public (an attempt to instill fear and undermine confidence in current administration).
You, JettaKnight, are asking, I believe, how coronavirus could have been a plan to win an election from the get-go.

If my understanding is correct, then you two (for example) are talking about different things.

It appears, most Democrat politicians did not bank on coronavirus and did not understand what was going to transpire, as Pelosi, Schumer, Cuomo, and DeBlasio dismissed coronavirus entirely as late as early March (at the very least).
Why did they change their position? Maybe because virus gained prominence in the public eye (China -> WHO -> EU -> etc.), it was bad for the sitting administration, hence bad for the incumbent. Something like that.

Then you're referencing certain politicians' "handling" of coronavirus situation, and point out that their actions appear to be hurting them rather than helping them.

Holcomb hasn't improved his chances of being reelected through this "power grab". Nor Whitmer.
AFAIK, most folks don't think Biden could have or will do better.

IMO you're on point, but that just might be anything from sheer incompetence to someone higher up having dirt on them. I dunno (naturally).
It's like asking why did Democrats (and RINOs) do what they did in the past 12 years (transgenderism, AOC, "the Squad", BLM, CRT to name a few)?
Maybe they thought it'd play out well for them?
They live in an echo chamber after all.

 

[Ingomike]

Why can it not be a dem power play of an opportunity to damage the Trump economy and create fear in the voters. Dems didn't have to create the mess to exploit it for political gain...

my suggestion would be to ask those that said such things instead of everyone.

It was answered, he just didn't like the answer...

 

[foszoe]

[Citation Needed]

To my knowledge, there is no empirical evidence (at least, as of yet) to support this assertion. Masks are not designed to, are not intended to, and simply don't, protect the wearer from infection.

You are my source for knowing that medical personnel do not wear masks to protect themselves but others.

 

[g00n24]

You are my source for knowing that medical personnel do not wear masks to protect themselves but others.

This is a bit untrue. PPE is for your "personal" protection. When I am drilling out a filling on a patient I am not wearing that mask to keep my germs from getting into the patient's mouth. I am wearing it to keep physical matter and debris from getting into my nose and mouth.

If we are talking about doing surgery in a sterile environment it is a bit different. However, surgical masks do not stop airborne pathogens from escaping around the surgeons mask and getting into the operatory. They do keep saliva and large water droplets from getting into the surgical site.

 

[NKBJ]

Yes, but if you and everyone else continues we will lose our civilization.
As was said in a movie long years ago, the only way to win is to not play the game.

 

[singlesix]

Saw the funniest thing on the Monon, guy wearing a Ski Google as his mask. This Mask thing is like a talisman for a lot of people. People are stupid, people get upset because someone isn't wearing a mask in line, but a large group sitting down at the table with no mask, since they are drinking guess it's safe ....

 

[SheepDog4Life]

After being steady,flat, for 2 months, until late September, Indiana daily positive cases have since almost doubled in the past 4 weeks.

What happened in late September that might explain this? What might be the cause?

Eater: Indiana Restaurants and Bars Get Green Light to Open at Full Capacity
https://www.eater.com/2020/9/23/21453224/indiana-reopening-stage-5-restaurants-bars-full-capacity

 

[dusty88]

After being steady,flat, for 2 months, until late September, Indiana daily positive cases have since almost doubled in the past 4 weeks.

What happened in late September that might explain this? What might be the cause?

Eater: Indiana Restaurants and Bars Get Green Light to Open at Full Capacity
https://www.eater.com/2020/9/23/21453224/indiana-reopening-stage-5-restaurants-bars-full-capacity

It's difficult to point to any one thing. There is credible information that people that eat at indoor restaurants are twice as likely to get Covid as those that don't. But I think people going to restaurants probably are out in other places more than people staying at home, so who knows.

This disease really takes weeks to wind up to the point where you get more cases and particularly more hospital admissions. Covid hospitalizations have nearly doubled in a month, so those people were infected weeks ago. Schools have been open, there were Labor Day parties, and people in general are getting fatigue plus possibly moving activities indoor more.

The horse is out of the barn. Even if we all buckled down now, hospitalizations will go up for a few weeks. And there is no sign that most of society wants to buckle down nor even put on a mask. I am concerned for the critical care healthworkers. There are few of them and they will be greatly taxed, especially since some of the cases might also have flu or they will have cases with both.