To Mask or Not to Mask?

[chipbennett]

This is a bit untrue. PPE is for your "personal" protection. When I am drilling out a filling on a patient I am not wearing that mask to keep my germs from getting into the patient's mouth. I am wearing it to keep physical matter and debris from getting into my nose and mouth.

If we are talking about doing surgery in a sterile environment it is a bit different. However, surgical masks do not stop airborne pathogens from escaping around the surgeons mask and getting into the operatory. They do keep saliva and large water droplets from getting into the surgical site.

...exactly what I've explained several times before. But for some reason, Foszoe seems to be intentionally obfuscating and exercising reductio ab adsurdum.

 

[chipbennett]

After being steady,flat, for 2 months, until late September, Indiana daily positive cases have since almost doubled in the past 4 weeks.

What happened in late September that might explain this? What might be the cause?

Eater: Indiana Restaurants and Bars Get Green Light to Open at Full Capacity
https://www.eater.com/2020/9/23/21453224/indiana-reopening-stage-5-restaurants-bars-full-capacity

Schools reopened. College students returned to campus. High school and college athletics resumed. Test frequency increased. There are lots of factors.

What do hospitalization and mortality trends during the same period show?

 

[Ziggidy]

Schools reopened. College students returned to campus. High school and college athletics resumed. Test frequency increased. There are lots of factors.

What do hospitalization and mortality trends during the same period show?

Whatever they want it to show.....how close are we to the election?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[BugI02]

After being steady,flat, for 2 months, until late September, Indiana daily positive cases have since almost doubled in the past 4 weeks.

What happened in late September that might explain this? What might be the cause?

Eater: Indiana Restaurants and Bars Get Green Light to Open at Full Capacity
https://www.eater.com/2020/9/23/21453224/indiana-reopening-stage-5-restaurants-bars-full-capacity

Florida re-opened restaurants and bars @100% three days later. Compare and discuss

View attachment 92230

 

[HoughMade]

Schools reopened. College students returned to campus. High school and college athletics resumed. Test frequency increased. There are lots of factors.

What do hospitalization and mortality trends during the same period show?

An uptick, but not in the same proportion....but just as positive tests trail exposure, hospitalization and mortality trail positive tests....but I am not expecting anything close to growth in proportion to positive tests.

...and those will level off, probably drop, in a week or 2.

 

[KMaC]

Indiana Restaurants and Bars Get Green Light to Open at Full Capacity
This is a misleading, pre-election announcement with no basis in reality. The small print says you still have to maintain social distancing 6 foot separation of tables so they are way below 50% capacity and many couldn't seat enough to justify reopening.
Bars in Marion County still have to close at midnight.

The rules-
Under Stage 5, restaurants, bars, and nightclubs are allowed to operate at full capacity, although social distancing must be observed and bar customers must be seated. Personal services, gyms, fitness centers, and workout facilities also may resume normal operations at full capacity. Additionally, indoor and outdoor venues are permitted to open at full capacity, provided organizers of events including more than 500 people submit a written plan to the local health department.Governor Holcomb also extended the statewide face mask order for the duration of Stage 5.

So the restaraunt/bar industry is far from a return to normal.
Election time smoke and mirrors.

 

[dudley0]

Needed some things from Menards in Muncie last Thursday. My youngest tagged along and we decided to eat lunch at Olive Garden. We were seated at a booth, next to a full table and the accompanying booth was full as well. They weren't that busy. Guess it made it easier on the wait staff.

I enjoy wearing a mask to and from the table. Makes me feel so safe. Even though it is an enclosed area and we walked by other people without masks because they were safely sitting down.

But... at least I got to go to a restaurant again.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Lol! And you forgot to mention the "magically" protective shield effect of eating/drinking while being in close proximity to strangers indoors for what is considered long (>15 minutes) exposure times.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Florida re-opened restaurants and bars @100% three days later. Compare and discuss

View attachment 92230

You need to check your sources... DeSantis' order prevents local govs from mandating LESS THAN 50% of capacity.

They can, and Miami-Dade still does, mandate no more than 50% capacity.

ETA: Linky:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nichol...aurants-reopen-at-full-capacity/#5d64408a7985

On Friday, Gov. Ron DeSantis (R) announced that bars and restaurants would be able to reopen at 100% capacity in Florida, in a decision that seemed to catch most local officials off-guard and makes Florida the largest state to lift restrictions altogether. The order also fully allowed businesses like movie theaters, gyms and strip clubs to reopen, while prohibiting any locality from enacting rules that would limit business to capacity to anything less than 50%. Miami-Dade County did just that, limiting restaurants to the 50% threshold while allowing for expansion if they can offer socially distant tables outside. Smaller restaurants are also now allowed to seat at 50% in capacity in Miami even if customers have to be seated within six feet of each other.

 

[BugI02]

Sigh. The actual order itself

https://www.flgov.com/wp-content/uploads/orders/2020/EO_20-244.pdf

Section 3. Restaurants
Pursuant to Chapter 252, including sections 252.36(5)(b), (g) and (h), Florida Statutes, and in order to safeguard the economic vitality of this state, any restaurant may operate as set forth below.
A. Restaurants, including any establishment with a food service license, may not be limited by a COVID-19 emergency order by any local government to less than fifty percent (50%) of their indoor capacity. If a restaurant is limited to less than one hundred percent (100%) of its indoor capacity, such COVID-19 emergency order must on its face satisfy the following:
1. quantify the economic impact of each limitation or requirement on those restaurants; and
11. explain why each limitation or requirement is necessary for public health.

Requires justification of any limitation locally at lower than 100%, which in turn gives the operator legal recourse if the justification is insufficient as well as prohibits the mandated closure of any business

Question, did Indiana's reopening overrule local regulation and mandate 100% operation? Or are you making a distinction without a difference

 

[BugI02]

Indiana Restaurants and Bars Get Green Light to Open at Full Capacity
This is a misleading, pre-election announcement with no basis in reality. The small print says you still have to maintain social distancing 6 foot separation of tables so they are way below 50% capacity and many couldn't seat enough to justify reopening.
Bars in Marion County still have to close at midnight.

The rules-
Under Stage 5, restaurants, bars, and nightclubs are allowed to operate at full capacity, although social distancing must be observed and bar customers must be seated. Personal services, gyms, fitness centers, and workout facilities also may resume normal operations at full capacity. Additionally, indoor and outdoor venues are permitted to open at full capacity, provided organizers of events including more than 500 people submit a written plan to the local health department.Governor Holcomb also extended the statewide face mask order for the duration of Stage 5.

So the restaraunt/bar industry is far from a return to normal.
Election time smoke and mirrors.

The post I was questioning tried to link spiking cases in Indiana to reopening at 100%, despite the appearance that the spike was already well under way prior to that date. Given what you point out, why is Indiana spiking but Florida is not? I don't think it has much to do with restaurants and bars being allowed to open at 100%

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Sigh. The actual order itself

https://www.flgov.com/wp-content/uploads/orders/2020/EO_20-244.pdf



Requires justification of any limitation locally at lower than 100%, which in turn gives the operator legal recourse if the justification is insufficient as well as prohibits the mandated closure of any business

Question, did Indiana's reopening overrule local regulation and mandate 100% operation? Or are you making a distinction without a difference

Sigh all you want, the Florida statewide edict is only that local government cannot mandate less than 50% occupancy, or close, bars/restaurants. Miami-Dade is 50%.

Your original supposition that Florida is 100% open now, too, is demonstrably incorrect... see Miami-Dade at a minimum... so now you're going to switch tactics, retreat, and say that Indiana bars/restaurants were not allowed to open to 100% capacity the end of September? I think that's on you...

I'd say your Florida example is supportive (though not additional proof)... Indiana 100% spikes, Florida NOT 100% doesn't spike.

So we'll see what happens when bars/restaurants open to 100% throughout the state, especially the most populous counties.

 

[hoosierhawkeye]

I do wear a mask when I am out in public and if I am around people who I don't live with. I am not afraid that the virus would be life-threatening for me. I don't want to possibly spread the virus to others. They say I could spread the virus before I even know that I am contagious.

 

[d.kaufman]

You know what else the "spike" in cases could be related to? Flu season kicking off

 

[HoughMade]

You know what else the "spike" in cases could be related to? Flu season kicking off

I guess it could be related in that people may be getting tested more often to know whether they have the flu or COVID...but the reported "spike" is based upon positive tests, not symptoms.

 

[BugI02]

Sigh all you want, the Florida statewide edict is only that local government cannot mandate less than 50% occupancy, or close, bars/restaurants. Miami-Dade is 50%.

Your original supposition that Florida is 100% open now, too, is demonstrably incorrect... see Miami-Dade at a minimum... so now you're going to switch tactics, retreat, and say that Indiana bars/restaurants were not allowed to open to 100% capacity the end of September? I think that's on you...

I'd say your Florida example is supportive (though not additional proof)... Indiana 100% spikes, Florida NOT 100% doesn't spike.

So we'll see what happens when bars/restaurants open to 100% throughout the state, especially the most populous counties.

I am in no way switching tactics. If you are saying Florida bars and restaurants being allowed to open at 100% but local jurisdictions can still limit that to 50% thus it is somehow an invalid comparison to Indiana, exactly what is the rationale? Does the Indiana Phase 5 rollout mandate 100%, or just authorize it? Are municipalities still able to have stricter limits? As others have pointed out, does not requiring the maintenance of the 6 foot distance make it difficult or impossible to operate at 100%?

So, where is the significant difference from Florida; and, if as seems to be the case, you seek to blame relaxed restrictions for Indiana's spike in cases it would seem incumbent on you to prove that Indiana's restriction level is significantly more lax than Florida's to have any hope of tying the IN Wuvid spike to going to stage 5. I don't believe you can make that case, so I ask again - why is Florida's experience so different from Indiana's

 

[Ark]

They say I could spread the virus before I even know that I am contagious.

This has been debunked. Just like every other respiratory virus, people don't spread it without symptoms.

 

[dusty88]

This has been debunked. Just like every other respiratory virus, people don't spread it without symptoms.

I disagree. The papers showing presymptomatic transmission are probably in the "coronavirus" thread. At this point, it looks like the highest transmission of virus is actually the 24 hrs before symptoms occur.

It's completely plausible for your body to allow virus to produce while not yet attacking areas that give you discomfort, fever, etc.

 

[Ingomike]

I disagree. The papers showing presymptomatic transmission are probably in the "coronavirus" thread. At this point, it looks like the highest transmission of virus is actually the 24 hrs before symptoms occur.

It's completely plausible for your body to allow virus to produce while not yet attacking areas that give you discomfort, fever, etc.

The truth is most of us have never looked so deep into the details of respiratory diseases and their spread. I detailed my protocol for the slightest symptoms for cold or flu. I would presume at that point I am contagious though to one I may share a car ride with, I do not appear sick, and with my regiment may never have overt symptoms.

Just a normal part of human life...

 

[JettaKnight]

I disagree. The papers showing presymptomatic transmission are probably in the "coronavirus" thread. At this point, it looks like the highest transmission of virus is actually the 24 hrs before symptoms occur.

It's completely plausible for your body to allow virus to produce while not yet attacking areas that give you discomfort, fever, etc.

That's what helps it spread so well.


Kinda evil genus, huh?