The Ethanol Lie

[ditcherman]

As a retired, life long farmer I believe all the facts believed/stated by some are not in fact facts.

As a young adult, I was told roundup was safe, and that it just disappeared when it hit the ground. It only affected plants. The half life was nothing. I think we’re coming to find out that’s not exactly true, probably far from it. But I often scoffed at those who thought it was poison, and it’s a hard path to change your mind, let alone swallow your words.

We don’t know what we don’t know. That’s obvious, and we can live with that. What’s really hard is that there’s so much info out there, and there’s no pushback on it.

 

[xwing]

Just one more arrow in the quiver if the left to stop all Internal Combustion Engines and make it all electric.....so they can control it all.

I'm afraid you are right. There is a reason all the eco-nut groups are turning on ethanol now. They don't care about facts, only how to best promote their agenda.

 

[Ingomike]

There are rules to becoming certified organic, one of which is that you have to raise three crops (ok technically 36 months which lets you skirt around the rules and sell your third crop don’t get me started on how organic can be a scam!) before you can sell as certified organic with a premium price.

So if you’ve read something along those lines, it doesn’t have anything to do with growing something, it may have to do with the activist mindset of all food is poison trying to convince you that it won’t grow anything. Not sure.
“Soil clear” is an interesting term, and I’m not saying agriculture and big chem haven’t done harm, but the idea that it won’t grow anything is equally preposterous.

As far as hard work to get the “soil clear”, you can just let it lay fallow and do nothing (except absorb ethanol emissions of course) to let it “go back to nature”. So the only hard work is paying for the ground without an income from it, and maybe mowing it.
Of course, you can plant beneficials in the mean time, or you could compromise and just go ahead and grow stuff on it.

I’m not in any way an expert on any of this and likely used imprecise words chosen for no reasons that my inadequate vocabulary on the topic. I have not been around farming since 1980 and a 1066 was the big tractor.

That said my logic indicates that broad spectrum nutrients likely will be farmed out by now and to grow food needing those would take time to rebuild in a way laying fallow would not.

 

[Ingomike]

As a young adult, I was told roundup was safe, and that it just disappeared when it hit the ground. It only affected plants. The half life was nothing. I think we’re coming to find out that’s not exactly true, probably far from it. But I often scoffed at those who thought it was poison, and it’s a hard path to change your mind, let alone swallow your words.

We don’t know what we don’t know. That’s obvious, and we can live with that. What’s really hard is that there’s so much info out there, and there’s no pushback on it.

The things we did with nasty stuff without PPE it is astounding we all are not dead…

 

[Biggredchev]

Where was all this hate when they were touting about the benefits of it being a renewable resource.

 

[Ingomike]

Where was all this hate when they were touting about the benefits of it being a renewable resource.

Disorganized compared to the organized farm lobby and enviro lobby.

 

[ditcherman]

I’m not in any way an expert on any of this and likely used imprecise words chosen for no reasons that my inadequate vocabulary on the topic. I have not been around farming since 1980 and a 1066 was the big tractor.

That said my logic indicates that broad spectrum nutrients likely will be farmed out by now and to grow food needing those would take time to rebuild in a way laying fallow would not.

Things aren’t always as we imagine them.
There are plenty of nutrients in the soil to grow things.
A furrow slice is defined as 6.7” deep (old school moldboard) over an acre and there’s roughly 1000 tons of soil in that. In that acre furrow slice there are probably thousand of pounds of basic nutrients - phosphorus, potash, etc - that a plant needs. A good corn crop might remove 50-150 pounds a year. Spreading fertilizer (150-500 pounds) is a drop in the bucket compared to what’s already out there. We will never (ok never say never) mine it out. Here’s the key reason: there is only so much available or soluble to the plant (and the soil test), and when a soil starts to get out of balance, say pH, calcium/magnesium ratio, possibly micronutrients, the plant doesn’t yield, therefore doesn’t pull those nutrients out. It’s a balancing act, and if one thing is off, the soil won’t become depleted, it will just look depleted, because nutrients get locked up, or not plant available.
So the work you may have to do to bring a beat down farm back is to find what’s out of balance, fix that, and let the plants do their thing. Typically if a farmer is cheaping out on fertilizer, he’s also cheaping out on lime and gypsum (most relevant around here) and the plants will show an imbalance, that just looks like a deficiency.

THE TL;DR
Do not fret, the soil will grow something. Try it.

I will add that just like a wine maker can tell what kind of soil the grapes were grown on, someone raising food can certainly have a smaller bullseye than what I have painted above. There may be a reason corn as we think of it has no redeeming nutritional value, as a healthy soil specific to the food grown can make a difference in the nutrition and taste.

Things are not always as they seem.

 

[ditcherman]

Where was all this hate when they were touting about the benefits of it being a renewable resource.

Drowned out by the quick feel good new shiny answer?

 

[HoughMade]

You guys recognize that this study is an effort to get away from liquid, burning, fuels altogether, right?

 

[Ingomike]

You guys recognize that this study is an effort to get away from liquid, burning, fuels altogether, right?

Yep, I good with running on high hopes and unicorn farts…

 

[HoughMade]

Also, I run my 1951 Allis Chalmers on E10 with Stabil, 'cause the Region can't have "non-oxygenated" gas. No problems at all. 'Course there is absolutely no plastic, vinyl or rubber in the fuel system and I shut off the fuel and run the carb bowl dry every time I use it.

 

[Jaybird1980]

Also, I run my 1951 Allis Chalmers on E10 with Stabil, 'cause the Region can't have "non-oxygenated" gas. No problems at all. 'Course there is absolutely no plastic, vinyl or rubber in the fuel system and I shut off the fuel and run the carb bowl dry every time I use it.

I don't know if Lacrosse is considered part of Da Region (stepchild maybe), but it's available there.

 

[Jaybird1980]

Things aren’t always as we imagine them.
There are plenty of nutrients in the soil to grow things.
A furrow slice is defined as 6.7” deep (old school moldboard) over an acre and there’s roughly 1000 tons of soil in that. In that acre furrow slice there are probably thousand of pounds of basic nutrients - phosphorus, potash, etc - that a plant needs. A good corn crop might remove 50-150 pounds a year. Spreading fertilizer (150-500 pounds) is a drop in the bucket compared to what’s already out there. We will never (ok never say never) mine it out. Here’s the key reason: there is only so much available or soluble to the plant (and the soil test), and when a soil starts to get out of balance, say pH, calcium/magnesium ratio, possibly micronutrients, the plant doesn’t yield, therefore doesn’t pull those nutrients out. It’s a balancing act, and if one thing is off, the soil won’t become depleted, it will just look depleted, because nutrients get locked up, or not plant available.
So the work you may have to do to bring a beat down farm back is to find what’s out of balance, fix that, and let the plants do their thing. Typically if a farmer is cheaping out on fertilizer, he’s also cheaping out on lime and gypsum (most relevant around here) and the plants will show an imbalance, that just looks like a deficiency.

THE TL;DR
Do not fret, the soil will grow something. Try it.

I will add that just like a wine maker can tell what kind of soil the grapes were grown on, someone raising food can certainly have a smaller bullseye than what I have painted above. There may be a reason corn as we think of it has no redeeming nutritional value, as a healthy soil specific to the food grown can make a difference in the nutrition and taste.

Things are not always as they seem.

And this doesn't even take into account crop rotation or tillage crops.

 

[HoughMade]

I don't know if Lacrosse is considered part of Da Region (stepchild maybe), but it's available there.

Thanks. It's probably worth it, but it's a trip.

 

[Ingomike]

Also, I run my 1951 Allis Chalmers on E10 with Stabil, 'cause the Region can't have "non-oxygenated" gas. No problems at all. 'Course there is absolutely no plastic, vinyl or rubber in the fuel system and I shut off the fuel and run the carb bowl dry every time I use it.

Are you sure there is no rubber in the carb? I thought the 52 farmall H had rubber in the carb.

 

[Ingomike]

Thanks. It's probably worth it, but it's a trip.

I would pick up 30 gallons at a time for all your mowers and other small engines and your back up generator…

 

[Jaybird1980]

Thanks. It's probably worth it, but it's a trip.

Probably easier for me, I just swing by on the way to Valpo. You probably are not just swinging by Lacrosse very often.

Ethanol free definitely stores better though, since the ethanol is hygroscopic it can be rough on steel tanks and causes aluminum oxidation.

 

[HoughMade]

Are you sure there is no rubber in the carb? I thought the 52 farmall H had rubber in the carb.

Now I'm curious- I went through it myself and I remember all iron, brass and aluminum (not that hygroscopic alcohol won't harm them), but now I have to look at a Zenith parts chart.

 

[Jaybird1980]

Now I'm curious- I went through it myself and I remember all iron, brass and aluminum (not that hygroscopic alcohol won't harm them), but now I have to look at a Zenith parts chart.

Using Stabil, MMO or Seafoam can help battle the chance of corrosion. Heck grandad use to add some 2 stroke oil in the equipment.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Also, I run my 1951 Allis Chalmers on E10 with Stabil, 'cause the Region can't have "non-oxygenated" gas. No problems at all. 'Course there is absolutely no plastic, vinyl or rubber in the fuel system and I shut off the fuel and run the carb bowl dry every time I use it.

This is huge for carb life. I do this for all of my seasonal implements. Between Marvel and that I havent replaced a carb since I started this practice. I used to have to rebuild or replace them all the time due to ethanol damage. And the REALLY important stuff like my "antique" West German Stihl and '76 Evinrude never sees ANY ethanol. Whether its from the co-op or the pre mixed quarts.

Oh, and a generous application of Sea Foam helped bring back a carb from the edge that wouldnt run except on partial choke. It started working again before I could swap the carb. The new carb has been sitting on the shelf for several years now.