The Ethanol Lie

[ancjr]

Just a question, do you think that ground will grow anything without all the fertilizers and pesticides?

...and irrigation.

 

[Ark]

Hang on a minute, wut?
Irresponsible rape?
Why would we deplete the soil to grow plants to burn in cars? So we can eventually not grow anything? No one wants to do that, except the guys that pay high cash rent to just say they are big farmers, and even most of them still take care of the ground.

My point is, we were growing corn long before ethanol, and if the subsidies for ethanol go away we will still grow corn.

There is certainly an argument against the monoculture corn/bean rotation, but it isn’t connected to ethanol.

There is also certainly an argument against using farmland to make gas vs feed people, but I assure you if people are hungry it will be used for food before ethanol.

It’s not vital, people aren’t nearly hungry enough yet for it to be vital.

Where do you get at this idea that ethanol causes rape of farm ground?

Topsoil is finite. It gets depleted.

 

[ditcherman]

Just a question, do you think that ground will grow anything without all the fertilizers and pesticides?

Yes, of course it will grow something.

Let’s start here and keep this in mind; The definition of a weed is just “something other than what you want there”.
So you can adapt and eat (harvest) what grows there, or you can modify what grows there. The difference between hunter gatherer and farmer, I suppose.

Anyway, we explored organic for a couple of years, no commercial fertilizer, no pesticides, bought a cultivator and rotary hoe, went all in on a 67 acre field. Corn yielded half. We quit that.
But you can skip some treatments and still grow things, and usually without cutting yield too much, the first year. Weeds are gonna get you the second though. And fertility 3-5 years later.

I’ve digressed in my answer and am curious as to why your asking…

 

[Ingomike]

Yes, of course it will grow something.

Let’s start here and keep this in mind; The definition of a weed is just “something other than what you want there”.
So you can adapt and eat (harvest) what grows there, or you can modify what grows there. The difference between hunter gatherer and farmer, I suppose.

Anyway, we explored organic for a couple of years, no commercial fertilizer, no pesticides, bought a cultivator and rotary hoe, went all in on a 67 acre field. Corn yielded half. We quit that.
But you can skip some treatments and still grow things, and usually without cutting yield too much, the first year. Weeds are gonna get you the second though. And fertility 3-5 years later.

I’ve digressed in my answer and am curious as to why your asking…

Just interested in what you would say.

 

[ditcherman]

Topsoil is finite. It gets depleted.

We’re growing corn no matter what.
Started in 1800’s, will continue…

That’s the quick answer.

The long answer, is, no it doesn’t. Not with proper management.
What makes you think that a guy growing corn for ethanol depletes his ground any more than a guy like me that grows 90% food grade non-gmo corn?

 

[ditcherman]

Just interested in what you would say.

Made me think of the Valentine’s Day “trap” meme.

 

[Ingomike]

Made me think of the Valentine’s Day “trap” meme.

Do I look fat in this?

 

[Ingomike]

Made me think of the Valentine’s Day “trap” meme.

Just when did you stop beating your wife?

 

[ditcherman]

...and irrigation.

No irrigation around here.
Only drainage.
Irrigation in sandy soil, or high value crops.
Drain the excess spring water away motivates the roots to grow and then come dry August roots have a better chance of grabbing moisture from subsoil. Applicable to much of the Midwest.

 

[ditcherman]

Do I look fat in this?

No, this one..

 

[ditcherman]

Just interested in what you would say.

Do you think it would grow anything?

 

[Ingomike]

Do you think it would grow anything?

Not for a while, probably 5 years of hard work to get it to grow actual food, like potatoes, carrots, etc.

Thinking from a survival perspective.

 

[ditcherman]

Not for a while, probably 5 years of hard work to get it to grow actual food, like potatoes, carrots, etc.

Ok not understanding this at all. I can throw seed down anywhere, actual food like you said, not just corn/soybeans and it will grow stuff.

What is the hard work to be done over 5 years to get something to grow?
I understand trying to make a garden spot but even a beat down field will grow. You not have to wait 5 years before you can grow something.

 

[Ingomike]

Ok not understanding this at all. I can throw seed down anywhere, actual food like you said, not just corn/soybeans and it will grow stuff.

What is the hard work to be done over 5 years to get something to grow?
I understand trying to make a garden spot but even a beat down field will grow. You not have to wait 5 years before you can grow something.

I have read and followed those that take commercial farm ground and try to get it to grow food. It takes time to get the soil clear to grow food. You may be able to grow something not sure what…

 

[Ark]

We’re growing corn no matter what.
Started in 1800’s, will continue…

That’s the quick answer.

The long answer, is, no it doesn’t. Not with proper management.
What makes you think that a guy growing corn for ethanol depletes his ground any more than a guy like me that grows 90% food grade non-gmo corn?

You think we can sustainability grow enough corn to replace millions of barrels a day of oil use without depleting any soil? Really?

Maybe if we terraformed Mars and planted every square yard of it.

 

[ditcherman]

I have read and followed those that take commercial farm ground and try to get it to grow food. It takes time to get the soil clear to grow food. You may be able to grow something not sure what…

There are rules to becoming certified organic, one of which is that you have to raise three crops (ok technically 36 months which lets you skirt around the rules and sell your third crop don’t get me started on how organic can be a scam!) before you can sell as certified organic with a premium price.

So if you’ve read something along those lines, it doesn’t have anything to do with growing something, it may have to do with the activist mindset of all food is poison trying to convince you that it won’t grow anything. Not sure.
“Soil clear” is an interesting term, and I’m not saying agriculture and big chem haven’t done harm, but the idea that it won’t grow anything is equally preposterous.

As far as hard work to get the “soil clear”, you can just let it lay fallow and do nothing (except absorb ethanol emissions of course) to let it “go back to nature”. So the only hard work is paying for the ground without an income from it, and maybe mowing it.
Of course, you can plant beneficials in the mean time, or you could compromise and just go ahead and grow stuff on it.

 

[ditcherman]

You think we can sustainability grow enough corn to replace millions of barrels a day of oil use without depleting any soil? Really?

Maybe if we terraformed Mars and planted every square yard of it.

No one said anything about replacing oil. No one thinks that. Never even entered my mind. Not part of the argument here, or in any reasonable circle.

Don’t make the mistake of thinking that your talking to someone who is pro-ethanol.

My comments and questions revolve around finding the truth about growing corn on acres that are already growing corn.

You said growing corn depletes the soil, and that was the conversation I was having.

 

[Hop]

Meh, I make more power out of my 2.0L turbo 4-banger on E85 than on leaded C116 race gas. 700+ HP.

I'll keep Ethanol thank you.

 

[Jaybird1980]

Meh, I make more power out of my 2.0L turbo 4-banger on E85 than on leaded C116 race gas. 700+ HP.

I'll keep Ethanol thank you.

They are more talking about MPG, not octane. (I guess)
You are still using more E than C. Just going faster doing it.

 

[Hardscrable]

As a retired, life long farmer I believe all the facts believed/stated by some are not in fact facts.