Military men face moral dilemma on Syrian strike: Follow consciences or orders

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  • MPH

    Plinker
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    Feb 25, 2011
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    <~NOT a 'Baker' unit
    You accept responsibility for your actions as a police officer, but soldiers should not be held responsible for their actions as soldiers?

    Soldiers ARE responsible for their actions, I take it you've never served...otherwise you would know.
    Hey, if these young volunteers have what you seem to think of as courage enough to post their opinions, fine. However, if they face disciplinary consequences, then so be it. They'll have earned them.
     

    crispy

    Master
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    Nov 29, 2010
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    You joined the military to go wherever you were told. Obey your lawful orders and STHU! You don't like it go see your commander...

    That works great for the people already in the military now. But where are we going to keep getting volunteers after we keep sending them off to be killed in other people's civil wars?
     

    armedindy

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    are there any other countries where the leaders are being ruthless and murderous towards their own citizens?
     

    mrjarrell

    Shooter
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    Jun 18, 2009
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    And yet, you replied. Huh..


    "The guy on the bottom will be the exact type who will be lining up and following orders to confiscate our guns, Constitution or oath be damned"

    If that's your take on this topic, and practically every other post you make, fine. It's obvious you've never served in the military, particularly the all-volunteer military we've had, for, oh..40 years. But go ahead and post that sort of paranoid drivel, if it makes you feel better.
    Unbunch your skirt, Francis. No paranoia at all in my post, just pointing out the cold, hard facts of the matter. That guys attitude is exactly the kind the powers that be will be looking to foster when the time comes to kick in the doors and take our our guns. He'll be glad to do it, too. Hell, you'll probably have his back.
     

    phylodog

    Grandmaster
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    Mar 7, 2008
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    There was not one word about "total rebellion and the elimination of our government at all levels" in the article. Sooo... why are you making stuff up?

    Simply making an observation based on a pattern of behavior. Wouldn't take too much effort for anyone to look through posts for a common theme. You don't like the current crop of politicians? You don't like the way the country is being run? Blame the politicians and convince others to do the same. Stop trying to place blame where it doesn't belong. The decision to launch an attack on Syria has nothing to do with Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen or Marines. Their duty to obey lawful orders is nothing to be ashamed of. Suggesting they disobey those orders is a selfish request and attempting to guilt them for following lawful orders is pitiful.
     

    steveh_131

    Grandmaster
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    Mar 3, 2009
    10,046
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    Soldiers ARE responsible for their actions, I take it you've never served...otherwise you would know.
    Hey, if these young volunteers have what you seem to think of as courage enough to post their opinions, fine. However, if they face disciplinary consequences, then so be it. They'll have earned them.

    I really have no idea what point you're even trying to make.

    Simply making an observation based on a pattern of behavior. Wouldn't take too much effort for anyone to look through posts for a common theme. You don't like the current crop of politicians? You don't like the way the country is being run? Blame the politicians and convince others to do the same. Stop trying to place blame where it doesn't belong. The decision to launch an attack on Syria has nothing to do with Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen or Marines. Their duty to obey lawful orders is nothing to be ashamed of. Suggesting they disobey those orders is a selfish request and attempting to guilt them for following lawful orders is pitiful.

    So which is it? Are the soldiers responsible for their actions, or aren't they?

    If they are, then they are responsible for saying 'no' when they believe their orders to be immoral.
     

    MPH

    Plinker
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    0   0   0
    Feb 25, 2011
    130
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    <~NOT a 'Baker' unit
    Unbunch your skirt, Francis. No paranoia at all in my post, just pointing out the cold, hard facts of the matter. That guys attitude is exactly the kind the powers that be will be looking to foster when the time comes to kick in the doors and take our our guns. He'll be glad to do it, too. Hell, you'll probably have his back.

    I'm not uptight, but thanks. Here, I'll re-post and make the appropriate changes:

    MrJarrel, I feel sorry for you. You seem to have this on-going fantasy/reality that some police/military state will be the doom of us all. Seriously, I bet you have some heroic death-trip, with you expending the last round of ammo from whatever belt-fed system you've 'liberated' and then fixing a bayonet, your face all dirty and sweaty, ready to repel "The Feds" with your last dying breath, screaming 'Libertad!!

    Better?
     

    armedindy

    Master
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    Sep 10, 2011
    2,093
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    I'm not uptight, but thanks. Here, I'll re-post and make the appropriate changes:

    MrJarrel, I feel sorry for you. You seem to have this on-going fantasy/reality that some police/military state will be the doom of us all. Seriously, I bet you have some heroic death-trip, with you expending the last round of ammo from whatever belt-fed system you've 'liberated' and then fixing a bayonet, your face all dirty and sweaty, ready to repel "The Feds" with your last dying breath, screaming 'Libertad!!

    Better?

    i dont know what ur two's qualm was.....but you MPH sound like many many liberal i have had the disfortune to conversate with......i feel as though youre projecting your own fantasies and fears upon another, when they never gave you any inkling of that being their actual idea of what would happen, YOU created that
     

    phylodog

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    Mar 7, 2008
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    I really have no idea what point you're even trying to make.



    So which is it? Are the soldiers responsible for their actions, or aren't they?

    If they are, then they are responsible for saying 'no' when they believe their orders to be immoral.

    They aren't responsible for making decisions on foreign policy. Following an order to deploy in support of your country is not immoral. You don't like the thought of invading Syria? Talk to the decision makers. This entire conversation reeks of how Vets were treated coming back from Vietnam, disgusting.

    intentionally opening fire on women and children is immoral. Participating in a war where women and children are killed is not the same thing.
     

    MPH

    Plinker
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    0   0   0
    Feb 25, 2011
    130
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    <~NOT a 'Baker' unit
    i dont know what ur two's qualm was.....but you MPH sound like many many liberal i have had the disfortune to conversate with......i feel as though youre projecting your own fantasies and fears upon another, when they never gave you any inkling of that being their actual idea of what would happen, YOU created that

    :laugh: "a liberal"..mkay..
    I've created nothing, just making an observation of an all-too recurring of the same ad nauseum I see from a couple of guys. Oh well.. one mans excretory drivel is another's gospel.
     
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    MPH

    Plinker
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    0   0   0
    Feb 25, 2011
    130
    18
    <~NOT a 'Baker' unit
    They aren't responsible for making decisions on foreign policy. Following an order to deploy in support of your country is not immoral. You don't like the thought of invading Syria? Talk to the decision makers. This entire conversation reeks of how Vets were treated coming back from Vietnam, disgusting.

    Very true, and I can't help but notice the hypocrisy of then-naval officer John Kerry proclaiming that Vietnam was a civil war which should not involve the American military..and now Secretary of State John Kerry pounding the war-drum for the same act, of US intervention in a foreign civil war using the 50 year old line of 'American interest and prestige at stake'

    Maybe it's easier to be a Hawk when you don't have to be in the combat zone and risk having your balls blown off, I dunno..
     

    SaintsNSinners

    Shooter
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    I side with the faceless soldiers protesting. If I were still enlisted I can I would be one of them as well.


    None of us know our end, really, or what hand will guide us there. A king may move a man, a father may claim a son, but that man can also move himself, and only then does that man truly begin his own game. Remember that howsoever you are played or by whom, your soul is in your keeping alone, even though those who presume to play you be kings or men of power. When you stand before God, you cannot say, "But I was told by others to do thus," or that virtue was not convenient at the time. This will not suffice. Remember that
     
    Rating - 100%
    15   0   0
    Aug 14, 2009
    3,816
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    Salem
    Rambone -I have to agree with Phylodog et al here. Following orders and enforcing the foreign policy of the US is duty. Whether one likes it or agrees with it , or not. Killing innocents? THAT'S an unlawful order. Confiscating guns from citizens? THAT'S an unlawful order. Firing on a declared enemy - regardless of whether I think it's smart or not? Not an unlawful order. It is my PREFERENCE that we not get involved in Syria. it's also my PREFERENCE that marriage be defined in the traditional manner - but you hardball Libertarian types like to jump all over my keister for enforcing my PREFERENCE. Perhaps you need to consider that whether we attack Syria is a PREFERENCE. it is a decision to be made by a Commander in Chief in consultation with Congress. I would agree with you that going after Syria is not my PREFERENCE.
     

    SaintsNSinners

    Shooter
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    I will defend against all enemies foreign and domestic.......


    How would that play out?

    We declare Assad's regime an enemy... We attack him,
    Al Quaeda is already an enemy... So we attack them as well..

    Wow a defacto 2 sided war before russia and china enter as well....
     

    rambone

    Grandmaster
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    4   0   0
    Mar 3, 2009
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    Simply making an observation based on a pattern of behavior. Wouldn't take too much effort for anyone to look through posts for a common theme. You don't like the current crop of politicians? You don't like the way the country is being run? Blame the politicians and convince others to do the same.
    You understand why its a total strawman argument though, don't you? Just because you have a "theme" of defending the government does not mean I should draw the conclusion that you support total 100% dictatorship. That would be unreasonable and not true. So, when somebody speaks out against bad laws, police excesses, and the global war on terror, it is unreasonable to conclude that the person wants "total rebellion and the elimination of our government at all levels." 15,000 posts and you think it would be more obvious. If I wanted no government I would never bring up the constitution, would I?

    I really saw this as more of a commentary on obedience to authority, a fascinating topic in and of itself. I admire those who broke their silence. Thinking and questioning are healthy; blind obedience is scary as hell.

    Stop trying to place blame where it doesn't belong. The decision to launch an attack on Syria has nothing to do with Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen or Marines. Their duty to obey lawful orders is nothing to be ashamed of. Suggesting they disobey those orders is a selfish request and attempting to guilt them for following lawful orders is pitiful.

    It seems that there is a qualifier for following orders: they must be lawful.

    Which means that some circumstances, soldiers must say "I refuse."

    Cookson, who didn't sign up to refuse anything, deserves to be taken to task. Have you anything to say about him?
     

    Trigger Time

    Air guitar master
    Site Supporter
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    Aug 26, 2011
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    You have such an eloquent way of insulting every person who has ever sacrificed and served our country.
    I think this disgraceful and illegitimate govt by way of breach of contract has been doing a fine job of disgracing and insulting every person who has ever sacrificed or served on their own. I would love to see whole units refuse this presidents orders. He is scrambling so hard now not to look incompetent and powerless because of the chest puffing he did to the media regarding seria and a u.s. response if they ever used chemical weapons. They called his bluff and now he's on his knees to congress betting the white house in order to get his little war funded.
    i have always been of the opinion that a soldier should follow lawful orders and not complain. However due to the current governments illegal actions over the last few years i think the military should stop following all orders.
     
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