How the ATF, Key to Biden's Gun Plan, Became an NRA 'Whipping Boy'

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  • jamil

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    Ok, now do universal background checks, because you just made an excellent argument for them.
    You realize that you're tacitly admitted that it's also an excellent argument for voter ID.

    It occurred to me that someone would ask about its application to gun control. There are a number of counterarguments. I'll just use one. The constitution just says "...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." So how do you apply "it's fair to attach standards of accountability to increasing ease of voting" to what amounts to restricting a right rather than expanding it?
     

    Kutnupe14

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    You realize that you're tacitly admitted that it's also an excellent argument for voter ID.

    It occurred to me that someone would ask about its application to gun control. There are a number of counterarguments. I'll just use one. The constitution just says "...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." So how do you apply "it's fair to attach standards of accountability to increasing ease of voting" to what amounts to restricting a right rather than expanding it?
    No. I don’t believe in universal background checks. Rights are rights. If you’re going to talk about ensuring the overall security of society as an explanation of modifying rights, then you’ve made the 2A subject to the same notion.
     

    jamil

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    The only thing I would have to ponder would be WMDs.
    If I want to own a fully operational battleshihp, have the financial resources, and the ownership of the battleship itself is not beyond my means to control, I should have the right to own it. Of course that sets some people's hair on fire when I say that. I the the line where society starts to have the right to limit what other people can own, is at least at whether it's even possible for people to control what they own without an inherent risk to others.

    Can a person have nukes without that inherent risk? I don't think so. I'm okay with society limiting that. There is no firearm that is so inherently dangerous that no person can control it. Except for maybe a Glock? :dunno: Well. No. Even then you can control the ugly. Just put it in a holster or something.
     

    jamil

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    No. I don’t believe in universal background checks. Rights are rights. If you’re going to talk about ensuring the overall security of society as an explanation of modifying rights, then you’ve made the 2A subject to the same notion.
    I don't think you're getting it. No one is talking about modifying rights. But let's explore the background check a little. Do you think that requiring background checks at all is violating rights?
     

    jamil

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    Seems like a big, fat nothingburger to me.


    Even though 9.2 million acres of inventoried roadless areas would be freed from the roadless rule, only 185,000 acres would be added to the areas that may be considered for timber harvest, the Forest Service said.

    Overall harvest projections remain at 17,000 acres of old growth and 11,800 acres of young growth over the next 100 years, levels envisioned in the 2016 Tongass land management plan.

    "The proposed rule does not change the projected timber sale quantity or timber demand projections set out in the Tongass Forest Plan," the Forest Service said in the documents. "The alternatives examine different mixes of land areas and timber restrictions that would incrementally increase management flexibility for how the forest plan's timber harvest goals can be achieved, but does not fundamentally alter the plan's underlying goals or projected outcomes."


    Of course, one of the most fundamental disconnects between ... call them coastal elites (which fits the best as it's not entirely partisan) and Americans in "flyover country" is land management. Surprisingly, Trump did a lot to push that in the direction of states' rights with his nomination of Gorsuch and other actions at Interior.

    I saw the after-effect of this snobbery first hand. In the late 1990s, a freak windstorm blew down millions of trees in the Routt National Forest in Western Colorado. Local timber companies volunteered their equipment and labor to go in and clean up the mess in exchange for harvesting the knocked-down trees. Sierra Club lawsuits and slow-rolling from the Federal government threw that out the window; the trees rotted on the ground.

    Which created another problem - the sudden plethora of available food resources resulted in an explosion in the population of bark beetles. Once they'd eaten their way through the fallen timber, they spread to the upright, healthy trees of the forest and the surrounding communities. When I lived there in the early 2000's they were still trying to figure out how to address the problem. On the bright side, tree services had plenty of business exterminating beetles.
    So basically it's reported as :runaway: when the actual story is more like :coffee:
     

    jamil

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    I believe you mean that no state required a government issued ID EXCLUSIVELY until then, they were certainly one acceptable means of ID among many long before then. Alas, that isn't even the issue. It IS required to prove that you meet the criteria set to make your vote legitimate, the methods have needed to be changed from time to time but not the reasoning behind it
    I haven't gotten caught up yet, but I haven't seen him address Justice Steven's opinion of Indiana's voter law yet. Maybe he's addressed it and I just haven't gotten to it yet.
     

    IndyDave1776

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    If I want to own a fully operational battleshihp, have the financial resources, and the ownership of the battleship itself is not beyond my means to control, I should have the right to own it. Of course that sets some people's hair on fire when I say that. I the the line where society starts to have the right to limit what other people can own, is at least at whether it's even possible for people to control what they own without an inherent risk to others.

    Can a person have nukes without that inherent risk? I don't think so. I'm okay with society limiting that. There is no firearm that is so inherently dangerous that no person can control it. Except for maybe a Glock? :dunno: Well. No. Even then you can control the ugly. Just put it in a holster or something.
    At one time it was commonplace for private owners to have armed ships. They fought off purates during times of peace and served as privateers during wars.
     

    IndyDave1776

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    No. I don’t believe in universal background checks. Rights are rights. If you’re going to talk about ensuring the overall security of society as an explanation of modifying rights, then you’ve made the 2A subject to the same notion.
    Did it occur to you that even the most accountability-intensive voter laws still have lower requirements than buying a gun in spite of the language "shall not be infringed"?
     

    gregr

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    So you've replaced the TDS straw man with the RINO straw man?
    I've been consistent in my opinion that the "Don't inconvenience me" and ultra-right wing of the GOP are the true RINOs; in some ways they seem more aligned with libertarians.

    If you're of the opinion that the election was stolen, then you're likely to remain that way next time the GOP loses. This seems incongruous with the conservative belief of accepting personal responsibility. Rather than simply accept that the majority of Americans don't want what the GOP offered, some have chose to deflect and blame others.
    The election may well have been stolen...but we`ll never know, because nearly no one wanted to delve into the irregularities that were found, to see the extent of the fraud. Drunk ol` uncle joe will always have an asterisk next to his name for an awful lot of people, because he`s seen as a completely illegitimate president.
     

    gregr

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    Its about the same distance as leaping from an Indiana Biden voter is automatically anti 2A
    Drunk ol` uncle joe campaigned hard on cracking down on guns. He threatened to make o'rourke, (the guy who said, hell yeah we`re coming for your AR-15) his "gun czar. So yeah, anyone who voted for that is without a doubt anti-Second Amendment.
     

    Ingomike

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    Exactly where in the constitution is the right to vote? I see where if there are votes they cannot discriminate. The constitution directs electors to the EC in the manor prescribed by the legislature
     

    jamil

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    Exactly where in the constitution is the right to vote? I see where if there are votes they cannot discriminate. The constitution directs electors to the EC in the manor prescribed by the legislature
    That implies the right to vote but it does not define it. That was one of my counterarguments that I did not care to use.
     

    JettaKnight

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    Exactly where in the constitution is the right to vote? I see where if there are votes they cannot discriminate. The constitution directs electors to the EC in the manor prescribed by the legislature
    Are we talking specifically about the president? Because if that's your argument, then can all the "restrictions" like ID only be applied to the top line item?

    If you're asking about just voting (because you weren't specific with your question):
    Article I, then the 15th, 17th, 19th, 23rd, 24th, and 26th amendments.
     

    jamil

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    Are we talking specifically about the president? Because if that's your argument, then can all the "restrictions" like ID only be applied to the top line item?

    If you're asking about just voting (because you weren't specific with your question):
    Article I, then the 15th, 17th, 19th, 23rd, 24th, and 26th amendments.
    They all touch on elections but none really explicitly establish a right to vote, at least not in the same language of, say, the 1st amendment.
     

    rooster

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    It's fair to attach standards of accountability to increasing ease of voting
    No one ever cared about ease of voting before recent history. “Pistols and Politics” by Samual Hyde jr ( a history of southern Louisiana) goes into a bit of how voting worked in the 1800’s. Like most state constitutions Louisiana had strict regulations on whom could vote.

    “The right to vote extended only to white males 21 years of age, who had resided in the state at least one year prior to the election and who had paid taxes in the 6 months preceding an election”

    polls were kept open for 3 days because the voters may have to travel for several days via foot to cast their vote.

    Voter ID and driving to the polls would not have been too difficult in the eyes of our forefathers.
     

    Ingomike

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    Are we talking specifically about the president? Because if that's your argument, then can all the "restrictions" like ID only be applied to the top line item?

    If you're asking about just voting (because you weren't specific with your question):
    Article I, then the 15th, 17th, 19th, 23rd, 24th, and 26th amendments.

    Yes, since I brought up EC...

    jamil expressed it more eloquently than I can....
     

    CampingJosh

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    It's fair to attach standards of accountability to increasing ease of voting. It's a balance of making voting as accessible as possible and still maintain integrity. When the nation was founded the constitution didn't say people have the right to have ballots mailed to them. I think for people who are able, the most accountable voting method should be the norm, which is voting in person. Then there can be special provisions for people who can't do that for various reasons. And everyone should have to prove that they are US citizens and that they live in the district in which they're voting. Rights aren't violated by striking that balance.
    I'm not opposed to voter ID. It's disingenuous to present the wave of new voter restrictions as basically just voter ID laws, though.

    I would be OK with requiring in-person, ID-verified voting for nearly all situations if the polling places were more numerous and more accessible. I think voting should be available 24/7 in every township for two weeks. Voting machines should be available and allotted proportionally to the population such that no one has to wait longer to vote than we have to wait for a NICS check.

    In my county, I spent more time unholstering to go into the courthouse to vote (early) than I spent waiting in line. I presented my ID, and then I immediately went to a machine to vote. That's how it should be for everyone. A couple of my friends in a more ethnically diverse area had to wait a full four hours--during business hours on a work day. They each had jobs that allowed them to take that time off--and they have enough wealth that they can give up 8 hours (combined) of pay to stand in line. I think there's a fair argument to be made that any system which requires people to give up income in order to vote is functionally a poll tax.
     
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