CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[JettaKnight]

Dude.

And I thought the Filioque was an obscure thing to have a schism over.

IKR.

It's not as bad as it looks. One of my best friends is Reformed and attends and is active in our church.


Want to get really silly? "Is mankind Dichotomous or Trichotomous?" That is do we have a body and soul or a body, mind and soul? Yeah, I've actually argued about that. By the end we were both laughing at the absurdity of the whole thing.

 

[T.Lex]

I've heard this preached, but also that if you've been baptized with His Holy Spirit, you would never renounce said Spirit.

So, does that position mean someone who does renounce the Spirit post-baptism, that it was a faulty baptism? Totally just curious about how that plays out. Not looking to start anything.

 

[T.Lex]

Want to get really silly? "Is mankind Dichotomous or Trichotomous?" That is do we have a body and soul or a body, mind and soul? Yeah, I've actually argued about that. By the end we were both laughing at the absurdity of the whole thing.

Yeah, that's why I'm weak on the Bible citation stuff.

I spent a great deal of time studying this stuff back in the day, finding my way, trying to find something to say. (Felt like a rhyming moment.)

Once I reached a point of personal clarity and comfort, I started paying more attention to the meaning and application to my life. To mix religious modalities, I see certain of the Mysteries in a zen way. Things to reflect on, pray about, and act as reminders to be humble about what we "know." Christ explained things as best He could at that time, to the people He had gathered.

 

[ChristianPatriot]

IKR.

It's not as bad as it looks. One of my best friends is Reformed and attends and is active in our church.


Want to get really silly? "Is mankind Dichotomous or Trichotomous?" That is do we have a body and soul or a body, mind and soul? Yeah, I've actually argued about that. By the end we were both laughing at the absurdity of the whole thing.

Titus 3:9 "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain."

 

[JettaKnight]

Titus 3:9 "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain."

The argument was definitely unprofitable and vain, but it was fun and certainly not contentious.

 

[rambone]

Do you believe that an infinitely powerful, infinitely merciful, infinitely loving God creates people in His image, imbues them an immortal soul, apportions faith to them, without affording them an opportunity to rejoin Him in Heaven?

So the quick answer is, all of nature points to a loving God and by following the dots, one can worship Him. Now that doesn't allow those that have access to the Word to practice paganism...

The other option is, no, they didn't have an opportunity. If we are all condemned, and God chooses who he freely gives his gift, then He's still more than mercifully. Am I a bad person if I give a gift to some and not all? No, I can freely give gifts to those I choose. Same with God. This doctrine stems from Calvinism.

Its a false assumption that God has given people "no opportunities" to walk according to righteousness. The fact is that God's law is written on our hearts and still we "choose evil, all the time." We choose to sin; we have no excuse. The penalties are clear.

"He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might..." -- 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

 

[bmbutch]

So, does that position mean someone who does renounce the Spirit post-baptism, that it was a faulty baptism? Totally just curious about how that plays out. Not looking to start anything.

Not sure, I'm not sure on this, I personally can't ever see walking away, but Peter said he'd never deny Him, but then the cock crowed.

 

[rambone]

I've heard this preached, but also that if you've been baptized with His Holy Spirit, you would never renounce said Spirit. I can't say which is correct, I have no plans, intentions, etc of ever speaking against His presence, instead, I'll just say "Praise His Holy Name"!

Using the biblical definition that "baptism with the Holy Spirit" is something occurring exclusively on people who have accepted Christ as Savior, that message is consistent with scripture. Once you are saved, you cannot lose your salvation (Romans 8:38-39).

Can a Christian lose salvation?

A person who walks away from church and renounces the Holy Spirit was never really saved to begin with. The church is full of pretenders (Matthew 7). Only a false disciple can utter those words.

Not sure, I'm not sure on this, I personally can't ever see walking away, but Peter said he'd never deny Him, but then the cock crowed.

Peter let fear overtake him several times, including the time he began to sink into the water when Christ called him into the turbulent sea (Matthew 14). Again, when the Romans had seized Jesus, he succumbed to a moment of cowardice and denied that he knew Him. These moments of fear were not tantamount to renouncing the Holy Spirit.

Just like Peter, we will be tested throughout our lives. We may go through moments of weakness and underwhelming faith. The moment of truth is at the very end of our lives; we had better have faith.

So, does that position mean someone who does renounce the Spirit post-baptism, that it was a faulty baptism? Totally just curious about how that plays out. Not looking to start anything.

Faulty baptism? We need to clarify a few things.

Water Baptism is not how we are saved. Plenty of faithless people are walking around after being dunked with water. Plenty of atheists grow up in places that baptize infants. Any unbeliever can listen to sermons his whole life, act churchy, and be baptized. People can say they love God, yet the words are hollow. If faith is not truly in one's heart, he will still perish.

Water Baptism is just an expression of love and obedience we should do after we accept Christ as Savior. A person CAN be saved without a water baptism, or doing any Godly thing in his life! Recall the thief hanging on the cross next to Jesus (Luke 23).

So, any baptism with water can be "faulty" in the sense that it is performed on a faithless person. On the other hand, a baptism with the Holy Spirit is never faulty, and for believers only.

 

[Mark 1911]

Its a false assumption that God has given people "no opportunities" to walk according to righteousness. The fact is that God's law is written on our hearts and still we "choose evil, all the time." We choose to sin; we have no excuse. The penalties are clear.

"He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might..." -- 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

We live in a time of huge opportunity for Christians! In some countries today Christians are being martyred for their faith. In our (paganized) culture we may not be confronted with a martyr's death (although that time may not be far off), but to live a Christian life in modern America is to be confronted with a martyr's life.

 

[roisigns]

 

[Mark 1911]

Using the biblical definition that "baptism with the Holy Spirit" is something occurring exclusively on people who have accepted Christ as Savior, that message is consistent with scripture. Once you are saved, you cannot lose your salvation (Romans 8:38-39).

Can a Christian lose salvation?

As you know, not all Christians adhere to this doctrine. So, not to start a debate, and don't expect to change anyone's mind, but just to point out that the theology of justification IS a debate in the Christian world for those who are not aware. So just to present the other side of the argument commonly referred to as "Once saved always saved", I respectfully submit this response.

Salvation is a free gift and humans have been known to spurn gifts freely given even after initially accepting them. Who decides if we are saved - do we make that decision or do we hope in God's grace? Isn't that hope something we hold onto for our entire life? We have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved.

The Apostle Paul explains, “I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize” (1 Cor 9:27). Here the prize is salvation, as is clear from the preceding verses. Saint Paul follows a disciplined life because he knows that there is a possibility that he might forfeit the salvation that he preaches. For this reason, in the very next chapter, Paul encourages the Christians in Corinth to do the same: “So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall” (1 Cor 10:12). The “fall” here is the “fall from grace” spoken about by Paul in Galatians 5:4. Interestingly enough, the warning about falling from grace in Galatians 5:4 is immediately followed up by Paul’s exhortation to have “faith working through love” in Galatians 5:6.

Since the Apostle believes that one might fall from grace, he elsewhere encourages the Christians in Philippi to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12). Here again we see Paul’s emphasis on a “faith working through love” (Gal 5:6). We are to work out our salvation. While it is a gift, it requires our effort.

 

[Crbn79]

Our works will be judged, yes. This is the party where the useless things burn away like hay and stubble and only the silver, gold, and jewels are left behind. We will be rewarded based on whatever is left behind. We will give an account for how we spent our time and the gifts that God gave us. Not our sins. Those are forgiven, wiped away, forgotten.

And they key point is that none of this determines our entrance into heaven. It simply determines our rewards in heaven.



It is certainly not automatic, nobody said it was. But the requirement is not that we change our life (even thought that comes as a result of salvation). The requirement is simply that we acknowledge and confess our sin so that we may be forgiven.



Yes. I believe it because the Bible says it.

This is actually an incorrect term. Our sins were never wiped away, nor washed white in the blood of the lamb, nor forgotten. There was a price paid for our sins. The law was fulfilled when Jesus died, he was the ultimate sacrifice, so much so that any sacrifice after the fact would be an insult to God. The consequences for our sins were paid, our debt was not forgiven, it was paid by another.

As for the fruit discussion, Matt 7:16-18 is very clear: …16"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.…

 

[Cpt Caveman]

Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.

Our debt was forgiven because of Jesus payment of it.

"I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness...." Isaiah 61:10

 

[IndyDave1776]

Titus 3:9 "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain."

Where did Cain get his wife?

(I couldn't pass up such a good opportunity to behave badly! )

 

[rambone]

re: Can we lose our salvation?

As you know, not all Christians adhere to this doctrine. So, not to start a debate, and don't expect to change anyone's mind, but just to point out that the theology of justification IS a debate in the Christian world for those who are not aware. So just to present the other side of the argument commonly referred to as "Once saved always saved", I respectfully submit this response.

People do indeed disagree about this, but the position that salvation can disappear is extremely hard to defend in light of scripture. The debate is welcome, if you wish to participate further.

Who decides if we are saved - do we make that decision or do we hope in God's grace? Isn't that hope something we hold onto for our entire life? We have been saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved.

Well, salvation depends on our belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus; faith in Christ. God reads our hearts and minds and has knowledge of whether our faith is genuine or an act.

The Apostle Paul explains, “I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize” (1 Cor 9:27). Here the prize is salvation, as is clear from the preceding verses. Saint Paul follows a disciplined life because he knows that there is a possibility that he might forfeit the salvation that he preaches.

First, let's review the sentence structure of 1 Corinthians 9:27 in various translations:

• "But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." -- KJV
• "But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." --NKJV
• "But I discipline my body and keep it under control,lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." -- ESV
• "No, I keep on disciplining my body, making it serve me so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not somehow be disqualified." -- ISV
• "but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified." -- NASB
• "No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize." -- NIV

I reviewed these and 2 dozen other translations and only the NIV says "disqualified for the prize." Most just say "disqualified," which seems consistent with the original Greek word, adokimos.

Disqualified from what? We know that if Paul reveled in sin and engaged in sexual immorality, he would be disqualified to preach and and be a leader in the church, according to the leadership standards penned in his own letters. Leaders must be "self-controlled" and "above reproach" to be qualified (1 Tim 3:2-7; Titus 1:6-9). A second plausible explanation is that Paul didn't want to be disqualified from the rewards that are promised after he gets into heaven, described in 1 Cor 3:10-15 and 2 John 8.

It would be jumping to conclusions that Paul thinks his salvation is on the line. And it would cause a ton of contradictions in other parts of scripture.

For this reason, in the very next chapter, Paul encourages the Christians in Corinth to do the same: “So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall” (1 Cor 10:12).

In 1 Corinthians 10, Paul is warning the church about invoking God's wrath through disobedience. In that chapter, he points out that their Israelite forefathers had direct access to God, and yet "Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them" (v.5). They engaged in idolatry, sexual immorality, and pagan revelry (v.6-8). And for their faithlessness, God put many of them to death (v8-10).

Corinth was being warned "not to test the Lord" (v.9) and to avoid temptation, because God is known to physically discipline sinners and/or strike them dead. Is there any inference about lost salvation here? That would be outside the context of the chapter.

The “fall” here is the “fall from grace” spoken about by Paul in Galatians 5:4. Interestingly enough, the warning about falling from grace in Galatians 5:4 is immediately followed up by Paul’s exhortation to have “faith working through love” in Galatians 5:6.

In Galatians 5, Paul is rebuking the church about pursuing a works-based salvation. The Galatians were stuck on believing that the law (specifically, circumcision) was the thing that justifies a Christian. This was a deadly heresy.

"I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit, by faith, we ourselves eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love." (v.3-6)

The person who justifies himself through the law doesn't know Christ; he is doomed. Paul makes this clear earlier in the letter, explaining, "by works of the law no one will be justified," (Gal. 2:16) and "all who rely on works of the law are under a curse" (Gal. 3:10).

Those who hear God's gracious message and choose legalism instead of embracing Christ are only exposing themselves as aliens to salvation. Jesus addresses these "fruitless seeds" in a parable, and John calls them "antichrists." They heard God's Word but were never saved.

"Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away. And as for what fell among the thorns, they are those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of life, and their fruit does not mature." -- Luke 8:11-15

"Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us." -- 1 John 2:18-19

Since the Apostle believes that one might fall from grace, he elsewhere encourages the Christians in Philippi to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2:12). Here again we see Paul’s emphasis on a “faith working through love” (Gal 5:6). We are to work out our salvation. While it is a gift, it requires our effort.

Good works are expected of believers; commanded by God. Good works are the evidence that a person has been saved; proof of the transformation. However, good works are emphatically not what brings us to salvation, Paul says. On this point, we can be certain.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." -- Ephesians 2:8-9

In Phil 2:12, Paul is emphasizing that believers have a responsibility to be obedient to God's commandments and pursue the sanctification process; all of which occurs after being saved. Paul is not contradicting his own statements on salvation by faith alone.

 

[T.Lex]

As you know, not all Christians adhere to this doctrine. So, not to start a debate, and don't expect to change anyone's mind, but just to point out that the theology of justification IS a debate in the Christian world for those who are not aware. So just to present the other side of the argument commonly referred to as "Once saved always saved", I respectfully submit this response.

This is interesting to me - I was not aware of such a debate.

I tend to see things more abstractly. In this situation, it makes the most sense to me to consider all the passages that talk about faith and acts comprehensively. In a sense, it may not matter which comes first, or which is more important. They are interwoven.

Good acts without faith is nice, but unlikely to result in salvation.

Faith without acting on it or consistent with it is rather empty. I think God appreciates the faith, but would be disappointed that nothing came from it.

In the course of this discussion, the people with the position that faith is paramount seem to also say that the good works are inevitable if the faith is strong. Totally makes sense. But, it really isn't any different than the position that people must have faith AND do good works.

When the Holy Spirit moves someone to act, they can still exercise free will and act or not act. If they have faith and are living in God's Word, then they will act. The faith and the action are, ideally, united.

 

[Mark 1911]

Rambone, T. Lex, I compliment both of you on your well thought out responses. It takes some reflection on these topics and effort to write these posts regardless of which leg of Christianity you claim as your own. I will try to put some more time in to some suitable responses later, but at this moment, my time belongs to my boss!

Tagged for later.

 

[indiucky]

Where did Cain get his wife?

(I couldn't pass up such a good opportunity to behave badly! )

Mail order bride from the Ukraine...She ended up ruining his credit...

 

[JettaKnight]

This is interesting to me - I was not aware of such a debate.

Next to baptism, Calvinism vs. Arminianism (aka "Free Will") is the most divisive (relatively speaking). Part of those frameworks involve "perseverance of the saints" (i.e. once saved, always saved) for Calvinist or counter of being able to lose your salvation.

Who's right?

While it's enough of a difference to create separate denominations, it's not enough to elicit condemnations or scorn from either side. I know what I believe, and that's different than what my wife believes, but we still enjoy fellowship together.

 

[T.Lex]

Next to baptism, Calvinism vs. Arminianism (aka "Free Will") is the most divisive (relatively speaking). Part of those frameworks involve "perseverance of the saints" (i.e. once saved, always saved) for Calvinist or counter of being able to lose your salvation.

Who's right?

While it's enough of a difference to create separate denominations, it's not enough to elicit condemnations or scorn from either side.

Yeah, it has been a LONG time since I've been in these kinds of debates, but it has renewed my skepticism about the legitimacy of these issues, at a macro level. Personally, I think God isn't impressed.

I know what I believe, and that's different than what my wife believes, but we still enjoy fellowship together.

Euphemism detection alerts are maxed out.