CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[BugI02]

Ah, interesting. So the values of the leaders can be attributed to the followers. I guess protestations from Trump supporters that they weren't comfortable with the man's personal foibles are now easily dismissed, too.

Translation: 'But what about Trump'

 

[T.Lex]

I'd say they aren't as pure as that, T.Lex.

The leaders or the marchers?

I certainly don't claim to know the hearts of all of those involved (and none who claim any national leadership role), but I am comfortable observing that most of those involved locally express pretty reasonable views of the situation. And areas to improve.

And again, I say the objective is not equality. It is dominance.

Well, let's get to equality and then figure out the next step. Fear of the pendulum swinging too far should deter us from doing the right thing now.

And again, based on what I see, the vast majority of those expressing support for BLM reject the violent cohorts and want something very close to equality.

When is it proper to tear down institutions and rebuild outside of the avenues put there in the Constitution?

We pretty much settled in 1865 that there isn't a mechanism outside of the constitution.

Iconoclasm certainly has its place. But redress of grievances would seem to me to be more appropriately brought before the goverment bodies involved as opposed to looting and arson.

The actual BLM people at the local level agree.

What I see today is no different than Abbie Hoffman and the Yippees attempted to do in the 60's: Tear it down and put people who meet the purity test in their place.

I was only briefly on the scene for the 60s and don't remember any of it.

Anarchists and the philosophically related nihilists will always make up a cadre of society. There's an ebb and flow to how many are drawn to that, usually in times of disparity. So yeah, I'm not surprised there's a cycle to it.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

there was a private school victory in SCOTUS today

I.... is that a Christianity thing? Or is that catholic?

 

[Alpo]

The leaders or the marchers?

I certainly don't claim to know the hearts of all of those involved (and none who claim any national leadership role), but I am comfortable observing that most of those involved locally express pretty reasonable views of the situation. And areas to improve.


Well, let's get to equality and then figure out the next step. Fear of the pendulum swinging too far should deter us from doing the right thing now.

And again, based on what I see, the vast majority of those expressing support for BLM reject the violent cohorts and want something very close to equality.


We pretty much settled in 1865 that there isn't a mechanism outside of the constitution.


The actual BLM people at the local level agree.


I was only briefly on the scene for the 60s and don't remember any of it.

Anarchists and the philosophically related nihilists will always make up a cadre of society. There's an ebb and flow to how many are drawn to that, usually in times of disparity. So yeah, I'm not surprised there's a cycle to it.

Any number of instances in history provide adequate examples of giving strident leaders their way.

I'd say that in this case, white guilt overshadows common sense.

The followers and sympathisers (on all but the police reform) are being duped. And, personally, I will oppose #BLM as long as it exists. And it appears to me that government, whether local, state level or national, don't have the balls to stand up to this accusation of racism and still deal with police reform.

 

[T.Lex]

Any number of instances in history provide adequate examples of giving strident leaders their way.

I'd say that in this case, white guilt overshadows common sense.

The followers and sympathisers (on all but the police reform) are being duped. And, personally, I will oppose #BLM as long as it exists. And it appears to me that government, whether local, state level or national, don't have the balls to stand up to this accusation of racism and still deal with police reform.

I do not feel white guilt. I am a process-guy, though. I believe in the process. I also believe there are prejudices based on race held by people in authority.

Mostly, I know that cultural changes can't be forced or legislated (which, actually, is the invocation of the force held by the state). These rallies and demonstrations and marches are an emotional response that will fade. The process-improvement, to the extent it happens, will be more beneficial change.

That's why, to me, it is important to engage BLM supporters on that. Let's have a conversation about what those changes would look like, after an understanding of what the problems are - not just the symptoms. Police hurting/killing African Americans is a symptom of the real problems.

But, those are hard problems to solve. Alot of work.

 

[T.Lex]

Oh, and Fr. Ted's non-apology apology.

https://www.setoncarmel.org/weekly-message-from-the-pastor/

The opening:

I am somewhat surprised that my recent article has received such
extensive coverage and has aroused such interest and debate. It was
not my intention to offend anyone, and I am sorry that my words have
caused any hurt to anyone.

At least he talks alot about God.

 

[T.Lex]

there was a private school victory in SCOTUS today

I.... is that a Christianity thing? Or is that catholic?

There are non-Catholic religious schools. Heritage Christian is a big one in the Indy area.

And yeah, that's a great case on an issue that is personally important to me!

 

[Alpo]

"Si vis pacem, cole justitiam. If you desire peace, cultivate justice.

That is a phrasing I can buy into.

However, BLM's No Peace, No Justice is a threat. Martin Luther King didn't use it that way, but this generation does,

And until the looting and burning stops and they sit down to discuss these matters, I'll continue to view it as a threat.

 

[2A_Tom]

"Si vis pacem, cole justitiam. If you desire peace, cultivate justice.

That is a phrasing I can buy into.

However, BLM's No Peace, No Justice is a threat. Martin Luther King didn't use it that way, but this generation does,

And until the looting and burning stops and they sit down to discuss these matters, I'll continue to view it as a threat.

Agreed, 100%

 

[JettaKnight]

"Si vis pacem, cole justitiam. If you desire peace, cultivate justice.

That is a phrasing I can buy into.

However, BLM's No Peace, No Justice is a threat. Martin Luther King didn't use it that way, but this generation does,

And until the looting and burning stops and they sit down to discuss these matters, I'll continue to view it as a threat.

So this is where I'm having a hard time.

MLK was certainly not a beloved individual in his time among white middle class folks - even in the church. But now? Yeah, held up as a hero (rightfully so).*


I'm trying to figure out, with my positions now, where would I have stood then? But, on the other hand, what's passing for protest now, looks nothing like that (well, except after MLK's assassination).
And it's more than being on the right side of history - I want to be on the right side of God.





* I did post somewhere Russel Moore's speech about this.

 

[2A_Tom]

Abraham Lincoln Quotes. Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God's side, for God is always right

 

[T.Lex]

On the topic of the national BLM movement as compared to the local:

https://www.thecatholictelegraph.com/can-catholics-support-black-lives-matter/67283

The organization should be distinguished from the broader social movement for racial justice, said Deacon Harold Burke-Sivers, a black Catholic deacon of the Diocese of Portland, Oregon, author, and co-host of EWTN’s Morning Glory radio show.
“Marching to protest the inequitable treatment of black people by those in authority—that’s good,” the deacon said.
However, the policies espoused by the Black Lives Matter organization on family and sexuality constitute “a radical feminist agenda disguised as a movement for ‘Black Lives Matter,’” he said.
“No Catholic can support the national organization, whatsoever,” he added.
Burke-Sivers encouraged Catholics to act for racial justice, but to pray first.
“Take the life that God has given us in these sacraments, and become the heads and the hands and the face and the heart of Jesus in the world,” he said. “Start with that and then put that into action.”
Saying “Black Lives Matter” is important, EWTN radio host Gloria Purvis, who is African-American, told CNA. She added that neither the phrase nor the movement should be viewed through the lens of only one organization.
“It’s a mistake to say that Black Lives Matter—the organization—is the head of this movement.”
“That’s like saying that one organization is the head of the pro-life movement,” she explained.
The phrase “Black Lives Matter” represents a whole “movement for racial justice,” she said, one which is now global and without one single leader. Using the phrase “doesn’t mean you are now de facto a member of this organization,” she said.

 

[2A_Tom]

That is one.

 

[T.Lex]

Fr. Ted - suspended.
https://dol-in.org/pastoral-response-to-racism

By decree of Bishop Doherty, effective 12 p.m. noon July 1, 2020 Father Theodore Rothrock is suspended from public ministry according to Canon 1333. The suspension comes in the wake of Father Rothrock’s June 28 bulletin article. The Bishop expresses pastoral concern for the affected communities. The suspension offers the Bishop an opportunity for pastoral discernment for the good of the diocese and for the good of Father Rothrock.

 

[abnk]

So, I don't know if the MSM will pick this up, but it reflects the intersection of Catholic priest, BLM, Antifa and Carmel. So, yeah, it probably will.

Fr. Ted Rothrock posted what appears to be a weekly Message from the Pastor on Sunday. The first miracle is that someone actually read it. Then someone probably pointed out that it wasn't really a good message, and didn't include anything from the Bible, or much Catholic teaching at all. And it was taken down.

But, Fr. Rothrock does not appear to be familiar with the Wayback Machine. (Boomer.)

https://web.archive.org/web/2020062...toncarmel.org/weekly-message-from-the-pastor/

A snippet:


Full disclosure: I think I've interacted with Fr. Ted for at least 25 years. He isn't a good priest. He isn't terrible, but he just isn't good at his job. But, he does like politics.

Oh, and if he had focused on Antifa and the elements of society that are using BLM to riot and loot, then that's a different issue. But his inclusion of BLM is a sweeping generalization that includes many people who want meaningful change in our culture.

The part in red is not true, and much of the rest is subjective. I see at least three things from Holy Scripture, one of which is an almost verbatim quote.

(hint: do you even compline, bro?)

 

[T.Lex]

The part in red is not true, and much of the rest is subjective. I see at least three things from Holy Scripture, one of which is an almost verbatim quote.

(hint: do you even compline, bro?)

I'm not sure what that hint is, but is the typo for "complain" or something about comparing lines? Friendly question, as I really don't know how to understand it.

But, sure, if you include the parts where he basically calls BLM Satan, then there are allegories to Biblical references. He doesn't quote any chapter or verse, let alone cite it. Which, if you look at his other blog entries, he usually does.

No biggie, though. I'm sure there are plenty of people, including parishioners, who agree with his sentiments exactly how they were expressed.

 

[2A_Tom]

Aside from BLM apologists.

 

[churchmouse]

The time bell has rang on this one gents.

Go here please.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...s-discussions-all-things-christianity-ii.html

 

[churchmouse]