CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[steveh_131]

Once again, James addresses the point that the works necessarily will follow as a result of and evidence of faith without minimizing that salvation is by grace through faith.

I agree, but we're still arguing the fundamentals. T.Lex is trying to avoid certain sins in case they might land him in hell.

 

[indiucky]

I saw this on PBS a couple of years ago.....The crowd was an NPR/PBS crowd....Very white, probably liberal, perhaps secular..The song is 11 minutes long but it is worth watching because you can actually see what us Jesus Freaks call "The Holy Spirit" move through the crowd...I guess I posted this because things in this thread were getting a little serious and I wanted us to maybe take a breath and "Look where He brought me from..."

It really is a powerful song and I hope I have these gentlemen's energy when I get their age...For those not familiar with "The Five Blind Boys From Alabama" you are in for a treat....They are (IIRC) the longest touring band in the US and have recorded with everyone from Lou Reed to Susan Tedeschi....

[video=youtube;fA17BmsklFA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA17BmsklFA[/video]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blind_Boys_of_Alabama

 

[T.Lex]

I'd argue "no" as the context is not centered around salvation. It is indeed good deeds done unto the Lord, however.

If you get Matt 25, then I get Matt 7:21-23.

haha

I'm done with you, unless you can find something that we really disagree on.

One who "does" the will of the Father. That looks like action to me.

Yes, please elaborate with Bible verses to back up

Seriously, you're contesting Original Sin?

Ok, I think I'm following you. My points 1 and 2 were both a correct representation of your statements, right? I find them confusing because they are contrary to the bible.

How can God judge us (Christians) for our sins if he has promised to forgive those sins?

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9
Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord Acts 3:19
Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." Hebrews 10:17

The bible is clear that we are not saved by our righteous works, but by His mercy.

Are you intentionally ignoring half of what I say, or is it an accident?

Those passages all point out the conditions that make mercy more likely: IF we confess, we will be purified; IF we repent and turn to God, our sins will be forgiven; all will be forgiven of those who have the law in their hearts and minds.

Sure it does. Ephesians 2:8 also comes up:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

This one is as clear as it can be. No parable, no interpretation. We are saved by faith, not works. So now you must make a choice between two logical options:

1. You are misinterpreting Matthew 25 in thinking that we are saved by our works, or
2. The bible contradicts itself.

If you keep speaking for me, my participation in this thread will be unnecessary!

Did I offer ANY interpretation of Matthew 25?

Regardless, are those not Christ's words?

I agree, but we're still arguing the fundamentals. T.Lex is trying to avoid certain sins in case they might land him in hell.

For the record, I try to avoid all sins. I also try to follow the path God intends for me. It is as much a positive - do actions that reflect my faith - as it is a negative - avoid sin.

Honestly, guys, this faith/works thing seems like a proxy for some other issue. Clearly, Catholicism doesn't require good deeds. If we did hundreds or thousands of ascetics would be in big trouble (hermits, etc.). In some cases, they don't even TALK.

Going back to Matthew 25, clearly there is an active portion to our faith. Not hiding our light under a bushel basket and all that. What are we really arguing about?

 

[steveh_131]

Seriously, you're contesting Original Sin?

I really can't figure out what point you're trying to make with it.

What are we really arguing about?

You argued that Christ's sacrifice is not quite enough. It covered "original sin" but not any sins that happen afterwards. And if you commit a sin 'big' enough, it might not be outweighed by the good that you do and you might end up in hell.

We're arguing about every bit of that, but you're honestly kind of dancing around the point and playing games and won't just be forthcoming with what you believe.

 

[T.Lex]

I really can't figure out what point you're trying to make with it.

You seemed to be unfamiliar with Original Sin. I don't know if you are serious about it or not.

You argued that Christ's sacrifice is not quite enough. It covered "original sin" but not any sins that happen afterwards. And if you commit a sin 'big' enough, it might not be outweighed by the good that you do and you might end up in hell.

I never argued that, never said that, and never implied it. Christ's sacrifice DID cover Original Sin (I guess you are familiar with it). I did not say "only." You did, then attributed it to me.

Indeed, it is possible to commit a big enough sin that "the good that you do" is insufficient and you might end up in Hell. At that point, it comes down to God's mercy, which is beyond our ken.

Or are YOU now saying that you can commit "good enough" acts to cancel out sin?

I guess this is worth stating again: there is no sin greater than Christ's sacrifice. But, Christ's sacrifice alone does not equate to a golden ticket into Heaven. I believe that to achieve that, our actions should be guided by Christ. Christ did His part; we must do ours.

We're arguing about every bit of that, but you're honestly kind of dancing around the point and playing games and won't just be forthcoming with what you believe.

Since you mention dancing, are you ever going to answer whether So, you think the millions of souls post-Christ who had no opportunity to know Him have no chance of getting to Heaven?

Clearly, that's a problem for you, isn't it?

 

[steveh_131]

Indeed, it is possible to commit a big enough sin that "the good that you do" is insufficient and you might end up in Hell. At that point, it comes down to God's mercy, which is beyond our ken.

Let's make a full stop, right here. I want to really nail this down.

Is one sin bigger than another, in the context of what keeps you out of heaven? No.

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. James 2:10

Is it possible to commit a sin big enough to outweigh the blood of Jesus? Absolutely not.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1

Blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin. Romans 4:8

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

Not one of us could ever stand before God and meet any kind of standard of righteousness. Not ever. When we stand before God, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us, just as our sin was laid upon Him.

God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 1 Corinthians 5:21

Followers of Christ will not and can not be judged for our sins. Our sins are forgiven. Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us.

During events of the Judgment Seat of Christ (Belivers' judgment), our deeds will be revealed for all to see. The good will be separated from the worthless, based on our hearts and our motivations. The worthless will burn up, and our rewards in heaven will be based upon whatever is left behind. This has nothing to do with entrance to heaven or hell.

Clearly, that's a problem for you, isn't it?

Jesus was pretty clear. No one enters heaven except through Him. Is that a problem for you?

 

[rambone]

So, you think the millions of souls post-Christ who had no opportunity to know Him have no chance of getting to Heaven?

The natural state of man is condemnation, as part of the inherited curse of Original Sin.

"...whoever does not believe is condemned already..." -- John 3:8

"...all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..." -- Romans 3:23

"...the wages of sin is death..." -- Romans 6:23


The world is "without excuse" for its depravity.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." -- Romans 1:18-20

"...the requirements of the law are written on their hearts..." -- Romans 2:15


God even reserves the right to create things with the express purpose of destruction, to demonstrate power and mercy to others.

"Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory..." -- Romans 9:21-23



And finally, Jesus says the path to the Father is exclusively through Him (John 14:6). Combining these verses we can draw an implied conclusion. Take comfort that God's justice is perfect (Deut 32:4) and His plan is good.

 

[Cpt Caveman]

Jesus' sacrifice covers ALL sins. There are no small sins the way God sees things. Just the thought of doing something sinful is the same as having done it in God's eyes. There's no way we can stand up before the Father without the full acceptance of the Son's atonement for our sins.
Praying for your enemies( people you disagree with) is hard to do.
If one's belief cannot have the light of The Word shined on it and hold up then perhaps that belief is wrong. We shouldn't be afraid to test our beliefs that way.
That being said there are some folks I have absolutely no doubt firmly and completely have accepted Jesus as their savior and still don't believe other aspects of the scriptures that I believe are important. Nobody is perfect. Myself included.
Jehovah rules!

 

[T.Lex]

Let's make a full stop, right here. I want to really nail this down.

That will be difficult if you only pay attention to half of what I say and keep attributing things to me that I didn't say.

Is one sin bigger than another, in the context of what keeps you out of heaven? No.

Well, according to 1 John 5:16-17, there are different kinds of sin.

Even then, the point is less about the factor of the sin and more about how one leads one's life.

Is it possible to commit a sin big enough to outweigh the blood of Jesus? Absolutely not.

Agreed. But salvation is not automatic.

Not one of us could ever stand before God and meet any kind of standard of righteousness. Not ever. When we stand before God, the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us, just as our sin was laid upon Him.

Followers of Christ will not and can not be judged for our sins. Our sins are forgiven. Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us.

Where is this righteousness-imputing mechanism in the Bible?

And you mean 2 Corinthians 5:21 but that does not really support your position. "In him we might become the righteousness of God." Might. Not will. Not shall. Not automatic.

Check out earlier in the chapter - 2 Corinthians 5:10.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Seems unnecessary for us to appear before the judgment of Christ, if his righteousness is automatically imputed to us. In fact, it looks like that idea is contrary to the actual words in the Bible.

By the way - notice the part about "what is due" for "things done"? Kinda looks like acts is part of the equation. Doesn't even mention faith or intent.

During events of the Judgment Seat of Christ (Belivers' judgment), our deeds will be revealed for all to see. The good will be separated from the worthless, based on our hearts and our motivations. The worthless will burn up, and our rewards in heaven will be based upon whatever is left behind. This has nothing to do with entrance to heaven or hell.

Bible citations are somewhat lacking in that paragraph. Is this something you believe or something more dogmatic?

Moreover, it starts out looking like the parable of the sheep and the goats referenced upthread. Yet, Jesus focused on charitable actions, not motivations. In fact, the "goats" were called out for only being motivated when the reward was clear.

Jesus was pretty clear. No one enters heaven except through Him. Is that a problem for you?

I don't know yet. And I may not be able to get in touch with you when I find out for sure.

You still haven't answered the question. Do you believe that an infinitely powerful, infinitely merciful, infinitely loving God creates people in His image, imbues them an immortal soul, apportions faith to them, without affording them an opportunity to rejoin Him in Heaven?

By the way, something else occurred to me while I was mowing this evening. I think only 2 of us have revealed what denomination we espouse and we both happen to be Catholics. (Well, there was the guy who says he goes to a Mennonite church, but I think he said he wasn't actually Mennonite.) I'll give Jetta a pass, since I think I have him narrowed down to a couple possibilities (most likely Jedi). But for the others active, are you in an organized church, with teachings, common beliefs, and developed dogma? Or are your beliefs more "home grown" and you are a denomination of 1 individual? There's nothing wrong if it is the latter, in fact it may be more interesting to explore certain topics if that is true.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Let's make a full stop, right here. I want to really nail this down.

Is one sin bigger than another, in the context of what keeps you out of heaven? No.

Uhhhhh.....

“I promise you that any of the sinful things you say or do can be forgiven, no matter how terrible those things are. But if you speak against the Holy Spirit, you can never be forgiven. That sin will be held against you forever.” — Mark 3:28-29

 

[T.Lex]

A word about the translation issue. I don't know how many of you have ever been fluent in a foreign language, but I have (or close enough). I've had to translate between 2 languages that really don't have anything in common.

There is no such thing as a perfect translation. I mean, I guess if you're writing simplistically at the level of kindergartner, maybe. But that's not the level at which the Bible was written.

I believe that one of the miracles of the Bible is that it is pertinent to today's world no less - and perhaps more - than ever. I my opinion, we have to make due with what we have. At a certain level, we have to trust that the religious people who translated did the very best they could to capture nuance and connotation and were guided by the hand of God.

Just my opinion.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Agreed. But salvation is not (fully) automatic.

By the way, something else occurred to me while I was mowing this evening. I think only 2 of us have revealed what denomination we espouse and we both happen to be Catholics. (Well, there was the guy who says he goes to a Mennonite church, but I think he said he wasn't actually Mennonite.) I'll give Jetta a pass, since I think I have him narrowed down to a couple possibilities (most likely Jedi). But for the others active, are you in an organized church, with teachings, common beliefs, and developed dogma? Or are your beliefs more "home grown" and you are a denomination of 1 individual? There's nothing wrong if it is the latter, in fact it may be more interesting to explore certain topics if that is true.

A word about the translation issue. I don't know how many of you have ever been fluent in a foreign language, but I have (or close enough). I've had to translate between 2 languages that really don't have anything in common.

There is no such thing as a perfect translation. I mean, I guess if you're writing simplistically at the level of kindergartner, maybe. But that's not the level at which the Bible was written.

I believe that one of the miracles of the Bible is that it is pertinent to today's world no less - and perhaps more - than ever. I my opinion, we have to make due with what we have. At a certain level, we have to trust that the religious people who translated did the very best they could to capture nuance and connotation and were guided by the hand of God.

Just my opinion.

First things first: Now that we have established that salvation is not an NFA weapon, on to translation! (OK, sometimes I can't help being a wise guy!)

Your treatment of translation is very nicely done. While I do not know Hebrew, Greek (Koine in particular), Aramaic, or Latin, I have a friend who shared the benefit of his extensive theological education with me including teaching me how to use the numbered exhaustive concordance in combination with the numbered Greek and Hebrew concordances and the numbered expository dictionary to get much of the benefit which comes from understanding the original languages. An example would be Isaiah 7:14 which prophesies the virgin birth. Several translations which I hold in lower regard render it that the 'young woman' will give birth rather than the 'virgin' (yes, while I consider the formation of a child in the conventional sense as a sentient human life a miracle in itself it is hardly special and worthy of prophecy). I can understand the argument here up to a certain point. The Hebrew word almah means without question a young woman of childbearing age. Some will say that the definition necessarily includes that she has not yet had children. This word in itself does not necessarily guarantee being a virgin, hence more liberal 'scholars' will typically try to make the absolute least of what the scripture says. Now, using the aforementioned references, I can look it up in the Hebrew concordance and see that almah occurs an even number of times and is an exact 50/50 split on being translated virgin or young woman. Next stop is the Septuagint in which we find it translated to Greek (by, according to tradition 70 rabbis, although I am not willing to swear that it wasn't 69 or 72) by a group of rabbis who were all fluent contemporaneous speakers of both Hebrew and Greek, and they translated it 'parthenos' which definitively means 'virgin' in the absolute sense. Please note that this was done by Jews a couple of centuries before Christ and therefore is not subject to revisionist politics. When Isaiah 7:14 is quoted in the Gospels, it is quoted in Greek, also using 'parthenos'. Given that this understanding comes from men who studied under Christ Himself, I find it difficult to find any higher authority to which one can appeal.

The critical lesson here for all those who may not have fully absorbed your point is that translation can be a very difficult and thorny subject requiring this type of diligence thousands of times over in order to translate the Bible, compounded with the fact that we, unlike the rabbis of the Septuagint, are working with a revived dead language and the street Greek of early Roman Empire which is significantly different from modern Greek.

I will have to say that when I compared the King James Bible with the 1599 Geneva, the Geneva is a little easier reading but the two say the same thing without exception that I could find. The King James was the establishment Bible. The Geneva was the dissenters' Bible--the same dissenters who fled England from which we get the Pilgrims, John Calvin, and also the Amish who became part of this group after they fled to the continent. This tells me that both are excellent quality translations prepared by translators who worshiped, respected, and feared God more than any king or ideology as evidenced by the diametrically opposite groups of translators coming up with the same results independently.

As for the miracles great and small, I will add that it is difficult to be special by being common. Miracles are not common because they are special demonstrations of the nature and power of God, who is not common in any way.

 

[Crbn79]

I'll just toss out here that there is no link between "not sinning" and getting into Heaven. Avoiding sins is not about getting to Heaven, many scholars believe it may increase rewards once we are there, but it has no bearing on getting there. The acceptance of Jesus as your savior is the only way.

The desire to "sin no more" is merely fruit of the change which happens within.

 

[IndyDave1776]

I'll just toss out here that there is no link between "not sinning" and getting into Heaven. Avoiding sins is not about getting to Heaven, many scholars believe it may increase rewards once we are there, but it has no bearing on getting there. The acceptance of Jesus as your savior is the only way.

The desire to "sin no more" is merely fruit of the change which happens within.

 

[T.Lex]

I'll just toss out here that there is no link between "not sinning" and getting into Heaven. Avoiding sins is not about getting to Heaven, many scholars believe it may increase rewards once we are there, but it has no bearing on getting there. The acceptance of Jesus as your savior is the only way.

The desire to "sin no more" is merely fruit of the change which happens within.

Conceptually, I do not disagree.

Logically, let's recognize the circularity of that.
1) To get to Heaven, one must accept Christ.
2) When one accepts Christ, one sins less.
3) When one sins less, one can get into Heaven.

It gets sideways a bit when we see someone who claims to have accepted Christ, but continues to sin (or finds new sins). We say they didn't truly accept Christ (something only God can know), so they continue to sin and they won't get to Heaven (we think).

Sinning less is a "symptom" if you will of following Christ. It is hard for me to imagine someone sinning less without God's help, although I allow that it might happen.


PS Can someone translate IndyDave's TL;DR post into English?

 

[steveh_131]

Even then, the point is less about the factor of the sin and more about how one leads one's life.

In terms of how one gets into heaven, no, it's not. How you lead your life is a result of your faith, but your faith is what gets you into heaven. James makes that perfectly clear.

And you mean 2 Corinthians 5:21 but that does not really support your position. "In him we might become the righteousness of God." Might. Not will. Not shall. Not automatic.

The 'might become' phrase does not denote some kind of probability, or some element of chance. The only 'maybe' involved is whether or not you put your faith in Christ. That faith brings you salvation, then you 'become the righteousness of God'. You're correct that it's not automatic, you're incorrect that it is some work of yours that makes it happen. It is a 'free gift', as the Bible phrases it, offered to you if you have the faith to understand that you need it and that Christ can supply it.

Seems unnecessary for us to appear before the judgment of Christ, if his righteousness is automatically imputed to us. In fact, it looks like that idea is contrary to the actual words in the Bible.

We will be judged not for our sins, but for the good works that we did. This is where we receive our rewards, if any. This is where the useless actions are burned up like hay and stubble.

You're familiar with this verse, right?

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

1 John 1:9

How can we be judged for sins once we have been forgiven and purified? Does that sound like forgiveness? What is the point of forgiveness if we are still going to be judged for them?

Bible citations are somewhat lacking in that paragraph. Is this something you believe or something more dogmatic?

Purely scriptural. This explains it pretty well: What are all the different judgments in the Bible?

You still haven't answered the question. Do you believe that an infinitely powerful, infinitely merciful, infinitely loving God creates people in His image, imbues them an immortal soul, apportions faith to them, without affording them an opportunity to rejoin Him in Heaven?

Rambone already addressed this with scripture:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." -- Romans 1:18-20

 

[steveh_131]

It gets sideways a bit when we see someone who claims to have accepted Christ, but continues to sin (or finds new sins). We say they didn't truly accept Christ (something only God can know), so they continue to sin and they won't get to Heaven (we think).

There's nothing sideways about it, this concept is straight from scripture.

3We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[SUP]a[/SUP] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did. 1 John 2:1-4

I think this is crystal clear. Our good works are an indication that we know Christ. They are not the mechanism of salvation.

 

[T.Lex]

We will be judged not for our sins, but for the good works that we did.

Now I'm really confused. So you're saying we WILL be judged by our works?

You're familiar with this verse, right?

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Yes, generally. That's a big IF - and it at least implies, if not requires, us to acknowledge our sins in order to confess them. Again, it is not automatic.

How can we be judged for sins once we have been forgiven and purified? Does that sound like forgiveness? What is the point of forgiveness if we are still going to be judged for them?

I think we've shifted to the "Saving Throw" concept. Yes, Christ's sacrifice is his hand extended to us. It is up to us, in that moment, to accept.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." -- Romans 1:18-20

So yes? You believe that God creates people with souls who have absolutely no chance to make it to Heaven? Just want to remove any doubt.

 

[JettaKnight]

It gets sideways a bit when we see someone who claims to have accepted Christ, but continues to sin (or finds new sins). We say they didn't truly accept Christ (something only God can know), so they continue to sin and they won't get to Heaven (we think).

I'll agree totally on this point. Is your Christian walk doesn't go forward (or even goes backwards), you might not really be a Christian...

PS Can someone translate IndyDave's TL;DR post into English?

No, but I can translate it into Latin.

 

[T.Lex]

@ steveh-
Can you clarify what you mean by these seemingly contradictory positions? I think I'm missing something.

I think this is crystal clear. Our good works are an indication that we know Christ. They are not the mechanism of salvation.

We will be judged not for our sins, but for the good works that we did.