CIVIL RELIGIOUS DISCUSSION: All things Christianity

[steveh_131]

Now I'm really confused. So you're saying we WILL be judged by our works?

Our works will be judged, yes. This is the party where the useless things burn away like hay and stubble and only the silver, gold, and jewels are left behind. We will be rewarded based on whatever is left behind. We will give an account for how we spent our time and the gifts that God gave us. Not our sins. Those are forgiven, wiped away, forgotten.

And they key point is that none of this determines our entrance into heaven. It simply determines our rewards in heaven.

Yes, generally. That's a big IF - and it at least implies, if not requires, us to acknowledge our sins in order to confess them. Again, it is not automatic.

It is certainly not automatic, nobody said it was. But the requirement is not that we change our life (even thought that comes as a result of salvation). The requirement is simply that we acknowledge and confess our sin so that we may be forgiven.

So yes? You believe that God creates people with souls who have absolutely no chance to make it to Heaven? Just want to remove any doubt.

Yes. I believe it because the Bible says it.

 

[steveh_131]

Can you clarify what you mean by these seemingly contradictory positions? I think I'm missing something.

There are two different judgments being discussed.

Non-believers will be judged for their sins. This judgment determines what punishment they will receive for them in hell.

Believers will be judged for their works. The useless things we've done or the things we've done for selfish reasons will be revealed and it will not be pleasant. But this judgment does not determine punishment, it determines our heavenly rewards. And our sins will not be included. How could 'forgotten' sins be included?

 

[T.Lex]

Yes. I believe it because the Bible says it.

And you are saying that Romans 1:18-20 is where you derive this?

 

[T.Lex]

The useless things we've done or the things we've done for selfish reasons will be revealed and it will not be pleasant.

Sounds like Purgatory.

 

[steveh_131]

And you are saying that Romans 1:18-20 is where you derive this?

Yes, among other parts of scripture. This is a somewhat Calvinist viewpoint, and is up for debate in my mind. I think the distinction between our own free will and the will of our Creator is a line that human beings may not be able to comprehend, so I don't spend too much time worrying about it. I know that God is just and fair.

 

[IndyDave1776]

PS Can someone translate IndyDave's TL;DR post into English?

 

[JettaKnight]

Uhhhhh.....

“I promise you that any of the sinful things you say or do can be forgiven, no matter how terrible those things are. But if you speak against the Holy Spirit, you can never be forgiven. That sin will be held against you forever.” — Mark 3:28-29

If you've gotten to that point, you've already forsaken salvation.

This issue comes up a lot with the students I work with - will Jesus forgive "X"? A lot of times "X" is suicide, abortion or other things, but occasionally it's "the unpardonable sin". My answer is, "if you're worried about grieving the Holy Spirit, then you're definitely not committing that sin." You get to that point once you don't care; once you ignore the pleas of the Spirit to come to the Cross.

 

[steveh_131]

Sounds like Purgatory.

No, it doesn't. Completely different. It's called the Judgment Seat of Christ.

There is no punishment for sins. And it doesn't take place until after the rapture.

 

[JettaKnight]

You still haven't answered the question. Do you believe that an infinitely powerful, infinitely merciful, infinitely loving God creates people in His image, imbues them an immortal soul, apportions faith to them, without affording them an opportunity to rejoin Him in Heaven?

I'll take up this challenge, but I'm also suppose to be working on a server re-org here at work...

So the quick answer is, all of nature points to a loving God and by following the dots, one can worship Him. Now that doesn't allow those that have access to the Word to practice paganism...

The other option is, no, they didn't have an opportunity. If we are all condemned, and God chooses who he freely gives his gift, then He's still more than mercifully. Am I a bad person if I give a gift to some and not all? No, I can freely give gifts to those I choose. Same with God. This doctrine stems from Calvinism.

I know, it's a lame answer, but time is short.

By the way, something else occurred to me while I was mowing this evening. I think only 2 of us have revealed what denomination we espouse and we both happen to be Catholics. (Well, there was the guy who says he goes to a Mennonite church, but I think he said he wasn't actually Mennonite.) I'll give Jetta a pass, since I think I have him narrowed down to a couple possibilities (most likely Jedi). But for the others active, are you in an organized church, with teachings, common beliefs, and developed dogma? Or are your beliefs more "home grown" and you are a denomination of 1 individual? There's nothing wrong if it is the latter, in fact it may be more interesting to explore certain topics if that is true.

Go back a read some of my post - especially our discussion on Communion. I'm Baptist, yo!

Growing up, my church was independent, but aligned with United Brethren. I decided I wanted to be in a Baptist church. And not Southern Baptist, Regular Baptist. There's a fair amount of doctrinal differences between the two.

Wallen.org

 

[T.Lex]

Yes, among other parts of scripture. This is a somewhat Calvinist viewpoint, and is up for debate in my mind.... I know that God is just and fair.

I am glad to hear you say that. I don't think that passage of Romans is as damning as you appear to interpret it, but I'm also not sure our differences are terribly important on that point.

I believe that God is great enough, powerful enough, and merciful enough to reach anyone. None of us have seen Christ. (If someone here claims to, then we probably need to explore that.) Like Christ said to Thomas, "Blessed are those who believe without seeing." (Probably not a perfect quote, depending on translation.)

I think it is fair to say that those participating in this thread feel Christ in our lives. At least for me, in tangible, recognizable ways. I don't need to see something to believe it exists or to see its impact on my life.

So, I can totally see how Christ - consistent with being the Way and the Truth - can influence people of any faith or no faith. He is, truly, the Way. But His ways are not necessarily our ways. I think we get caught up in how we would do things, but I believe that God has a plan for all of us. The more we keep to His plan, the better our lives will be, and the better the afterlife will be.

By the way, on the topic of parables, Christ - all knowing - was somewhat limited in the cultural "vocabulary" to express very complicated ideas. Sometimes I wonder, if He was bodily active now, we might have The Parable of the Quantum States to help us understand things better.

 

[T.Lex]

I'm Baptist, yo!

That can't be right. I'm still betting on Jedi.

Growing up, my church was independent, but aligned with United Brethren. I decided I wanted to be in a Baptist church. And not Southern Baptist, Regular Baptist. There's a fair amount of doctrinal differences between the two.

Ok, seriously, thank you for sharing that. I hope others share similarly.

 

[JettaKnight]

Growing up, my church was independent, but aligned with United Brethren. I decided I wanted to be in a Baptist church. And not Southern Baptist, Regular Baptist. There's a fair amount of doctrinal differences between the two.

This does a good job of summing up Regular Baptist:
Major Points of Difference in Reformed and Baptist Theology | GARBC Baptist Bulletin

 

[IndyDave1776]

Ok, seriously, thank you for sharing that. I hope others share similarly.

I had been planning on it, but just hadn't got there yet.

I started out at the Catholic church by virtue of my mom's second husband being nominally Catholic. I ended up with that taking root, but not deep enough to keep me there. When I was 17 a neighbor persuaded me to go to a Christian church which was where I came to salvation. Following that, I ended up moving through a couple of Baptist churches and a few independent churches. My focus generally lands on the divide between salvation and the lack thereof which leaves me as the type of person who is able to worship with most any Bible-believing Christian.

That said, I have also come to the conclusion that relying on any church too much is not a good thing. It is critical to remember that God never changes, but man will fail you, and churches are collections of people.

 

[findingZzero]

I'll be hiding under my bed until you guys work this all out. I may stay there even if you do. It's nice under there.....

 

[IndyDave1776]

I'll be hiding under my bed until you guys work this all out. I may stay there even if you do. It's nice under there.....

Have fun snuggling with the monster under the bed!

 

[findingZzero]

We all have to face the Minotaur.

 

[T.Lex]

I'll be hiding under my bed until you guys work this all out. I may stay there even if you do. It's nice under there.....

You do realize, God knows what you do under there, too.

 

[rambone]

Uhhhhh.....

“I promise you that any of the sinful things you say or do can be forgiven, no matter how terrible those things are. But if you speak against the Holy Spirit, you can never be forgiven. That sin will be held against you forever.” — Mark 3:28-29

This is consistent with the doctrine of salvation.

Renouncing God's Holy Spirit is a true indication of faithlessness. Faith is the vehicle to salvation and forgiveness. Therefore, a person who renounces the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

 

[T.Lex]

This does a good job of summing up Regular Baptist:
Major Points of Difference in Reformed and Baptist Theology | GARBC Baptist Bulletin

Dude.

And I thought the Filioque was an obscure thing to have a schism over.

 

[bmbutch]

This is consistent with the doctrine of salvation.

Renouncing God's Holy Spirit is a true indication of faithlessness. Faith is the vehicle to salvation and forgiveness. Therefore, a person who renounces the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

I've heard this preached, but also that if you've been baptized with His Holy Spirit, you would never renounce said Spirit. I can't say which is correct, I have no plans, intentions, etc of ever speaking against His presence, instead, I'll just say "Praise His Holy Name"!