1 dead...police chase...Indy’s northwest side ends...officer-involved shooting

[DoggyDaddy]

DD you are usually very reasonable.

We all have rights, they are designed to protect you and me.

They are generally used by lawyers to protect miscreants.

Okay well cool. Let's just strike the laws concerning stolen property from the books then. I'm all about less government. Do away with licenses and registrations too, since they're clearly not needed. Sweet. That'll save me a few hundred bucks a year.

 

[Sigblitz]

I wonder how many people are walking around with a second hand gun that they don't know is stolen?

 

[2A_Tom]

I wish there was a single word that expressed total disdain for the type of lawyer that caters to felons and those that advertise to sue for anything.

Am I mistaken, or did it use to be illegal for lawyers to advertise.That is a law that I could get behind.

 

[KG1]

Exhibit A.

The whole video is awesome, but skip to 3:30 for prima facie evidence if you want to.

(Warning - Language and truth)

[video=youtube;nM8i31pBKWI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM8i31pBKWI[/video]

[FONT=&amp]A Connecticut state trooper has been put on leave after he was [/FONT]captured on camera[FONT=&amp] profanely berating a motorist during a traffic stop.

[/FONT]https://www.yahoo.com/news/connecticut-trooper-leave-profane-rant-010720252.html[FONT=&amp]


[/FONT]

 

[BehindBlueI's]

No, because I followed the legal procedure. If I had not plated it, not registered the boat, and tried towing it on public roads and using it on public waters, then yes. So in the case of Sumdood, if he has no evidence that he "bought it off craigslist" and no evidence that he has gone through the legal procedures of trying to get it registered and titled, then yes he should IMHO. It's not about proving innocence. It's about showing that you followed legal procedure to the best of your ability, and failing that, there should be legal consequences, don't you think?

I assume you must have had your purchase delivered since you didn't drive it on a public road prior to inspection. Lots of people go to the buyer and bring it home themselves.

You followed the legal procedure to get it registered. Can you show me where any of that is an element of possession of stolen property? (Hint: it isn't) The legal consquences for not following those "procedures" would be failure to register. Not possession of stolen property.


He does not have to prove his innocence. I know some INGO members like to pretend this is a tyranny, but we're actually not. The burden is entirely on the state, not the accused. The state has the burden to prove he committed a crime, and has to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. He has no burden to prove he's innocent. That is a bedrock principal of our justice system.


That said, you have the luxury of living in "how it should be" according to whatever your ideas are. The MCPO doesn't have that luxury. They have to deal with the real world. In the real world, its a losing case. You know how people pretend they want the government to be efficient? It's not efficient to throw resources at cases you know you're going to lose.

 

[Fargo]

To BBi’s point, there is a string of caselaw going back decades in Indiana that says as a matter of law, unexplained possession of stolen property that has not just been stolen is per se insufficient to support a conviction for theft/receiving absent additional evidence to prove that the person knew that it was stolen.

In short, even if a jury were to find guilt based solely on unexplained non-immediate possession, the judge and/or Court of Appeals would be required to not enter the convection and enter an acquittal.

The state bears the burden of proving all elements.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

To BBi’s point, there is a string of caselaw going back decades in Indiana that says as a matter of law, unexplained possession of stolen property that has not just been stolen is per se insufficient to support a conviction for theft/receiving absent additional evidence to prove that the person knew that it was stolen.

In short, even if a jury were to find guilt based solely on unexplained non-immediate possession, the judge and/or Court of Appeals would be required to not enter the convection and enter an acquittal.

The state bears the burden of proving all elements.

I'm kind of sorry you posted that, tbh. I was starting to think it'd be fun to have a mock trial to prove the point and have one of the real attorneys here by the judge. I was all ready to play Sleazy McScuzzball, attorney at law. My client, Idun Diddit, has five prior convictions for auto theft, one for felony molest of a duck, and four overdue library books. I also thought maybe he should have "I steal cars" tattoo'd on his forearms. It would have been fun. I was getting my closing arguments ready, going to say my client wasn't going to take the stand, and was definitely going to wear long sleeves. And you ruined all that. I hope you're proud of yourself.

It was going to be an auto theft case only. No pursuit, shots fired, all that. If you're already being charged with fleeing and the shooting, asking why no auto theft charge is akin to asking why no speeding tickets were issued. Who cares? All the "little" charges are going to get rolled into the big ones anyway.

 

[Fargo]

I'm kind of sorry you posted that, tbh. I was starting to think it'd be fun to have a mock trial to prove the point and have one of the real attorneys here by the judge. I was all ready to play Sleazy McScuzzball, attorney at law. My client, Idun Diddit, has five prior convictions for auto theft, one for felony molest of a duck, and four overdue library books. I also thought maybe he should have "I steal cars" tattoo'd on his forearms. It would have been fun. I was getting my closing arguments ready, going to say my client wasn't going to take the stand, and was definitely going to wear long sleeves. And you ruined all that. I hope you're proud of yourself.

It was going to be an auto theft case only. No pursuit, shots fired, all that. If you're already being charged with fleeing and the shooting, asking why no auto theft charge is akin to asking why no speeding tickets were issued. Who cares? All the "little" charges are going to get rolled into the big ones anyway.

We all have God-given talents, unfortunately mine largely seems to be centered around “turd in the punch bowl” abilities.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

I assume you must have had your purchase delivered since you didn't drive it on a public road prior to inspection. Lots of people go to the buyer and bring it home themselves.

You followed the legal procedure to get it registered. Can you show me where any of that is an element of possession of stolen property? (Hint: it isn't) The legal consquences for not following those "procedures" would be failure to register. Not possession of stolen property.


He does not have to prove his innocence. I know some INGO members like to pretend this is a tyranny, but we're actually not. The burden is entirely on the state, not the accused. The state has the burden to prove he committed a crime, and has to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. He has no burden to prove he's innocent. That is a bedrock principal of our justice system.


That said, you have the luxury of living in "how it should be" according to whatever your ideas are. The MCPO doesn't have that luxury. They have to deal with the real world. In the real world, its a losing case. You know how people pretend they want the government to be efficient? It's not efficient to throw resources at cases you know you're going to lose.

Understood. This is what it really boils down to. Don't like it, but I do understand.

 

[dudley0]

I'm kind of sorry you posted that, tbh. I was starting to think it'd be fun to have a mock trial to prove the point and have one of the real attorneys here by the judge. I was all ready to play Sleazy McScuzzball, attorney at law. My client, Idun Diddit, has five prior convictions for auto theft, one for felony molest of a duck, and four overdue library books. I also thought maybe he should have "I steal cars" tattoo'd on his forearms. It would have been fun. I was getting my closing arguments ready, going to say my client wasn't going to take the stand, and was definitely going to wear long sleeves. And you ruined all that. I hope you're proud of yourself.

It was going to be an auto theft case only. No pursuit, shots fired, all that. If you're already being charged with fleeing and the shooting, asking why no auto theft charge is akin to asking why no speeding tickets were issued. Who cares? All the "little" charges are going to get rolled into the big ones anyway.

I was about to let Mr. Diddit go until you mentioned the overdue library books. Now I am unable to be a good juror because of that.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I was about to let Mr. Diddit go until you mentioned the overdue library books. Now I am unable to be a good juror because of that.

Would it change your mind if one was "Hotwiring for Dummies" and another was "Steamy Stories from the Chop Shop"?

The point of that bit is priors don't usually "come in" until sentencing. There's a few rare exceptions, but they aren't really relevant to this.

 

[MarkC]

In short, even if a jury were to find guilt based solely on unexplained non-immediate possession, the judge and/or Court of Appeals would be required to not enter the convection and enter an acquittal.

I thought the 8th Amendment prohibited the convection of guilty defendants?

 

[Fargo]

I thought the 8th Amendment prohibited the convection of guilty defendants?

Mmmm, now you have me thinking about barbecue...

 

[2A_Tom]

[video]https://images.app.goo.gl/UGrRDPKAygVVKED39[/video]

Maybe if we had public spit roastings it would discourage younguns from entering a life of crime.

 

[drillsgt]

[FONT=&amp]A Connecticut state trooper has been put on leave after he was [/FONT]captured on camera[FONT=&amp] profanely berating a motorist during a traffic stop.

[/FONT]https://www.yahoo.com/news/connecticut-trooper-leave-profane-rant-010720252.html[FONT=&amp]


[/FONT]

That was an epic rant, probably not recommended but I like that guy lol.

 

[cbhausen]

That was an epic rant, probably not recommended but I like that guy lol.

Gunnery Sergeant Hartman approves!

 

[Alamo]

To your last point do you realize how many cars, boat, motorcycles, etc are bought and sold without titles? ...

I ran into this when I had to sell an enclosed utility trailer left on the (self-storage facility) property. It was pretty banged up from being in an accident and if I had my way would have junked it, but by law I could not do that. I had to try to verify who the actual owner was and notify him that I was going to sell his trailer to pay overdue storage fees before I could put it up for auction, and I also had to provide the buyer with paperwork that would allow him to register it at the DMV. I ended up sending in forms to both the Mississippi and Texas DMVs with various numbers (not all trailers have VINs, or at least legible VINs, so this is fun to figure out), plus use the license plate on it to track down possible owners. Had a Mississippi plate but somehow I ended up a possible Texas registration (plate, not title) as well that may or may not have been the trailer I had, and ended up calling some woman in Laredo, who sounded very unhappy and scared to be hearing from me. She had plated a trailer at one point for her husband's business, but her husband's brother sold it to some other guy from ________ and she hadn't seen it since, and refused to answer any more phone calls or letters.

Eventually I ended up with enough evidence from the DMVs that I could legally and truthfully state that I had tried real hard but could not find the owner. When I sold the trailer I gave the buyer the paperwork showing my homework and he could use that to get it plated at the DMV. That is after he replaced the bent axle and repaired the rear door that had been knocked off in the accident so it could be towed off the property.

Anyway, plate-swapping on trailers seems to be very common, and it would not surprise me to find out that half the utility trailers in Texas don't have the right license plate and have been sold/swapped/stolen/acquired numerous times in their lives. Trailers below a certain value? size? (I forget which) don't have to be titled in Texas (and other states), just registered so it can be very difficult to determine the true owner.

 

[dudley0]

Would it change your mind if one was "Hotwiring for Dummies" and another was "Steamy Stories from the Chop Shop"?

The point of that bit is priors don't usually "come in" until sentencing. There's a few rare exceptions, but they aren't really relevant to this.

Doesn't matter what titles are. If he is such a hardened criminal that he has overdue library fees then he needs to be locked up.

No three strikes for this one. He did the crime and he must pay... dearly.

I get what you were saying. I was attempting to be a smart ass and failed at the first part.

 

[2A_Tom]

d0, you achieved your goal, some just do not realize what a smart ass you are.

Not sure how well your sarcasometer works, I was going to post ([STRIKE]dumb[/STRIKE] smart ass) but I didn't want to get reported.

 

[bwframe]