Ok truck guys, "murder board" my decision

[BigRed]

(A Murder Board is where you present an idea and everyone tries to find fault/present counter-arguments as a method of testing the soundness of the decision)

Ok, talk me out of it/poke holes in my logic of selecting a Ram 2500 Power Wagon over the Ford F-150 Tremor:

My wife told me to buy a new truck and give mine to my son and it's been made clear to me that the instructions were literal in that she would prefer the new truck be a new truck. I tried to buy a PW out of Louisiana and got scooped at the last minute, so now it's 2023 ordering time regardless of it's Ford or Ram.

Intended use: Long distance recreational trips, occasional hardware store runs, inclimate weather use on occasion, 200-ish mile round trips to my rural property and friends/family visits. Limited but occasional off road/trail use. Service roads and light to moderate trails at best. The occasional trip to TX, CO, UT but anything further would be very rare.

Power Train (mild win PW). The 6.4/8 speed is just a smoother power train. The Ford F-150 Tremor was quicker without a doubt, but also clunkier. Turbos, wastegates, and that 10 speed did not make a smooth "2 lane passing" sort of manuever when you got on it hard then left off suddenly. If you stay in it, it takes a bit to catch but then it's gone. I think it's more the 10 speed than the motor, but it's there. The PW is not as quick but is more predicatable and linear, if that makes sense. The big NA motor just does it's thing without drama and the 8 speed is dialed in. Tremor passes in less space, though, and feels sportier.

Interior (strong win PW). Honestly, no comparison. The Ram's interior is just nicer when comparing top trim to top trim. Both are comfortable, but the Ram is slightly more so. The leather and the plastics in the Tremor look cheaper when viewed side by side. Which is fair given that it is cheaper, which we'll touch on in a bit.

Exterior (mild win PW). This is really subjective, but I like the Ram more. Not enough that it's a big deal, but especially with Tracer graphics and the top trim with the vertical grill, I like it more than the Tremor. I really don't like the extreme rake of the Tremor, but a level will take care of that so it's a non-issue.

Price (strong win Tremor). Optioned the way I want them, roughly $8k difference in price (that's actual purchase price, not MSRP, both through Granger). This isn't entirely fair, as some features that would come with the Tremor will not be on the PW but come standard with the high package. A true apples to apples would be closer to $10k. I just don't care enough about lane assist, emergency braking, etc. to buy the safety package on the PW.

Technology (mild win Tremor). Tremor's tech package has more stuff like drive modes and comes with more driver assist stuff standard. The display is fully digital, although the rumor is the 2023 PW will be as well. I kind of like the mix of analog/digital the current one has, though.

Trucky-ness (mild win PW). Honestly not that much more capable in terms of payload due to the soft springs, it's a very light 3/4 ton or a heavy 1/2 ton as far as that goes. But, 6'4" bed. I have been hesitant to go to a 5.5" bed for a few reasons, not least of which is I can sleep in the 6'4" bed with an air mattress and mosquito net as well as more easily do the hardware store runs over a 5.5' bed. I don't plan to tow anything, and if I do it's unlikely it would stress a Rav-4 so the mild differences in towing capacity is a non-issue for me.

Urban use (very mild win Tremor). Tremor is 7" shorter (length) and 1" shorter (height). Width is fractions of an inch difference. Both have cameras, cross path detection for backing out of head-in curb spots, etc. The PW has ****ing fantastic visibility. Neither is going to be fun to find a parking structure for, but Tremor will be slightly easier to parallel park or head in park.

Highway use (very mild win PW). The ride quality of the PW surprised me. The F-150 unladen is more bouncy and floaty, especially in the rear, but it's only noticable on really bad sections of road, like hitting a big ass chuckhole on an on ramp. The PW feels planted regardless, and thanks to the soft springs and the fact it's coils it rides very nicely. Really surprising for a 3/4 ton. *BUT* range sucks. 16mpg is realistic from everything I've read, 31 gallon tank. So usuable range of around 400-ish miles. I'm used to 500-ish, and the Tremor is around 600-ish. I value both relatively equally, and a part of me says it's easy to swap shocks and it's easy to carry gas cans, so neither is likely insurmountable. The visibility from the PW is ****ing incredible, though. It still has the 4th gen cab dimensions so you sit up higher in the cab than the 5th gen Ram, add in the extra ride height, and it's like driving a brontosaurus.

Infotainment (draw). Ford has more intuitive physical buttons, Ram has some buttons but wants you to use the screen for more stuff. Both have nice screens. Factory sound system is better in the Ram, but not dramatically so. I find Uconnect understands my voice commands more reliably than Sync, but haven't gotten to play with the latest versions of either that's in these trucks much.

Desire to screw-with-it-ness (win PW). Bed cover and rock rails, eventually 35" tires when the OEMs are done and maybe upgrade the shocks when the OEMs are done. I don't see anything else I need or want. Tremor? I'm going to **** with it. I'll want the extra HP from a 93 only tune, it needs a level and tires out of the gate. I want a winch, since I'll be alone most of the time on trails, which will be a bother on the Tremor since you need to relocate the intercooler. Which, while you're in there you might as well get an aftermarket one for more cooling...

Longevity (no crystal ball, but guessing...PW?). I just can't imagine a twin turbo V6 is going to last as long as a NA V8, but maybe I'm wrong. Both transmissions are apparently well proven. The ball joints, etc. on the PW are the same as the other 2500s so made for the extra 600-ish lbs of a diesel motor. That's got to be good for longevity, right? I've not had rust issues with my 2012 Ram since I take care of it. I'll fluid film the PW and keep it nice as well, so corrosion shouldn't be a concern.

Misc: PW is going to take longer to be delivered, per guesstimates. I'm ordering from Granger in Iowa either way, Ford or Ram, and they think they'd get the Tremor quicker. I'm not super worried about it, but if I could get it today I could get 2.5% interest at my credit union. I don't *have* to finance, but I think I want to at 2.5%. I just doubt that rate is still there in 6-9 months. Fuel costs aren't a huge concern, but 16mpg highway vs 20mpg highway but 87 octane vs 93 octane for best performance (you *can* use 87 in the Ford, you just lose power). Given the spread in per gallon costs, probably not that big a deal. Especially no more than I drive. Plates and insurance costs are pretty samey-same.

So, what'd I miss? Any compelling reason, other than wallet cramps, to not go with the PW?

Good luck.
Have fun.

 

[Brad69]

Looks like you have made the right choice with a Tundra!

So you are working hard ?

I thought those days were over?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I'd go with the 2500HD. I'm not a Dodge or anything else fan.
No long-term turbo and timing chain BS to worry with down the road.
Hopefully you are keeping it in a garage because the Dodges can develop exhaust manifold leaks over time.

My house is too old for any modern full size truck to fit in, let alone a 2500. A Ranger would probably fit

Bought my last 3 trucks without seeing them. And that’s about 15 yrs. Of trucks. Credit Union had a service that did all the work after getting my requirements. They of corse wanted to sell you the money, they searched for the best deal. I picked them up at the CU.

I’ve heard good things about the Tundra’s but they were bought 3,4,5 years ago. Nothing recent.

New or used? I'll buy new remotely, but used is a harder ask.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Looks like you have made the right choice with a Tundra!

So you are working hard ?

I thought those days were over?

Working long, any way

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I drove a 2022 Silverado ZR2 today and also did a crawl under it. Honestly, I think I'd have been more impressed if I didn't have the PW to compare it to.

Pros for the Chevy:
It's quick for a truck and the 6.2L/10-speed work in tandem very well. Smoothness, it didn't give up anything vs the PW. Acceleration at partial or full throttle was responsive and quick for a truck. Sudden deceleration was smooth. Braking was smooth and strong, but I didn't test for fade since it was just a test drive. It's a quiet truck until you romp in then you can hear the 6.2L and it sounds nice.

Interior is very nice. Maybe a touch nicer than the Ram appearance wise. The horizontal screen seemed more useful than the vertical screen in the PW. Spanks the Ford's interior. Stereo was pretty meh to me, but I just listened to a little FM and didn't hook up a phone.

Displays were cool, but I think there will be a learning curve. Physical buttons were easily placed and intuitive to use. Camera display was nice for forward or reverse.

Steering had a very nice heft and feel to it. It was so nice I noticed how nice it was vs the steering just being invisible.

Cons for the Chevy:
Skid plate package isn't remotely as robust as the PW or even the Tremor. Exposed fuel tank with no skid. No transmission skid and the exhaust runs under the tranmission pan. This causes the exhaust to have a flattened spot in the tubing an it looked like it was dimpled accidentally. I seriously doubt it was dented off road, there was zero indication of off road use and it had 1800 miles on it.

Seats look nice and are "sporty" but were noticably harder than those in the PW or the Tremor.

Stereo was disappointing, Chevy's Bose isn't nearly as good as Ford's B&O or Ram's HK.

Priced significantly higher than the Tremor, on par with the PW pricing real world.

Ground clearance much less than PW, maybe on par with the Tremor



Final thoughts: If you take price out of the equation, I think this is a winner. If I wanted a luxury softroader, I'd have to give this truck serious consideration. Adding price back in to the equation, I think the PW offers more capability and a near level of luxury for the same price. I don't think there's a loser in the group. ZR2 vs Tremor, that's a harder call. The ZR2 wins on road, arguably, and interior is nicer but the Tremor is better protected and more capable off road...and $8k-ish cheaper. That's a harder call. PW is still my front runner though. Shame the olive green pearl one got sold so quickly.

 

[Lpherr]

The 19 speaker HK is very nice.
The sound is clean and you don't listen to music, you're in it.

I think the trucks have 17 speakers.

 

[Mij]

I can suggest a method to tone down that interior to Dodge levels.

3 adult German Shedders, takes about one trip to town.

Shiney, gone.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

The 19 speaker HK is very nice.
The sound is clean and you don't listen to music, you're in it.

I think the trucks have 17 speakers.

17 speakers? 19 speakers? You've only got 2 ears. How many speakers do you need??

 

[dmarsh8]

My house is too old for any modern full size truck to fit in, let alone a 2500. A Ranger would probably fit

New or used? I'll buy new remotely, but used is a harder ask.

Haha, I see. Now that you bring Chevy into the mix that would be my pick but it's your money and needs/wants.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

17 speakers? 19 speakers? You've only got 2 ears. How many speakers do you need??

Next your going to ask how many guns vs hands...c'mon now. Need has nothing to do with it.

Honestly, the high speaker count is marketing fluff. You aren't getting surround sound in a truck and they sound as good with 9 as 18, but having real tweeters and a real sub does make a difference. The Ram is probably the best factory system I've heard. The Ford is good but a little punchy, which some people may like more.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Haha, I see. Now that you bring Chevy into the mix that would be my pick but it's your money and needs/wants.

I don't think I'd be unhappy with it. In fact, if I hadn't driven the PW I think it would be in a stronger position. The PW is just better suited for some of the things I want to do. A real locking transfer case, 2" of ground clearance, a more robust skid plate package, factory winch, the ability to run 35" without any modifications, and a 6'4" bed all appeal to me more than the somewhat nicer interior and faster acceleration. I also think the PW seats are going to be more comfortable on long hauls.

We are in a golden age of offroad trucks. There's no real loser in the bunch, IMO.

 

[indyblue]

I had one in a '73 Plymouth Satellite that was Dad's old work car. It would get up and go!

My first car when I got my license was mom's '73 Satellite Sebring Plus, the sporty version. 318 + torqueflite + the salpstick was fun. I flogged the thing and it never missed a beat. I even accidentally rammed it into reverse with the slapstick going 50! The tires screamed and the car almost stopped but I caught it quick and back into drive. - no damage, lasted for years after that.

 

[Mounty09]

I don't think I'd be unhappy with it. In fact, if I hadn't driven the PW I think it would be in a stronger position. The PW is just better suited for some of the things I want to do. A real locking transfer case, 2" of ground clearance, a more robust skid plate package, factory winch, the ability to run 35" without any modifications, and a 6'4" bed all appeal to me more than the somewhat nicer interior and faster acceleration. I also think the PW seats are going to be more comfortable on long hauls.

We are in a golden age of offroad trucks. There's no real loser in the bunch, IMO.

But come on, the front end of any of the new Chevy's is Fugly!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

But come on, the front end of any of the new Chevy's is Fugly!

ZR2 isn't bad, I think, but there's a lot of grill for sure.

I think the new flo-tie (the hollow Chevy emblem that lets air through) had red outlines inside. Bumper shape is actually smart, it's steel and not plastic, and the end caps are easily removed and replaced in case of damage. The shape helps improve off road capability. It'd be nice if the cowl hood was functional, but I think it's just for show. Other than the Raptor, I'm not sure any of the truck hood vents are real across any of the manufacturers. Toyota hood scoop is fake. Ram rebel vents are fake. I'm 99% sure the Tremor fender vents are fake. Raptor vents are functional, though.

 

[Mounty09]

ZR2 isn't bad, I think, but there's a lot of grill for sure.

I think the new flo-tie (the hollow Chevy emblem that lets air through) had red outlines inside. Bumper shape is actually smart, it's steel and not plastic, and the end caps are easily removed and replaced in case of damage. The shape helps improve off road capability. It'd be nice if the cowl hood was functional, but I think it's just for show. Other than the Raptor, I'm not sure any of the truck hood vents are real across any of the manufacturers. Toyota hood scoop is fake. Ram rebel vents are fake. I'm 99% sure the Tremor fender vents are fake. Raptor vents are functional, though.

I will admit that it isn't as bad as the regular 1500 and the HD series. I'm not a fan of how the fender wraps around to the front. Too bad they didn't stick with the Z71 naming. Didn't they use to have a ZR2 S10 that was only 2wd?

 

[indyblue]

But come on, the front end of any of the new Chevy's is Fugly!

The front end of just about everything is fugly these days. It started with the Lexus, gawd are those ugly front ends. And some models of new beemers with the oversized elongated grills look ridiculous.

Sort of glad I'm not in the market for a new car or truck. Between the looks and every model transitioning to the stupid "let's glue a giant ipad to the dashboard", I'm bummed.

I kinda envy you folks that can afford (to actually buy and pay for, not finance for 8 years to keep up with the Jones's) any new truck, they're so ridiculously expensive now. I don't understand why alot of folks want a truck as a daily driver if truck functionality is not needed. Everything about them cost 2x as much to buy and own as a car. Gas, tires and oil mucho bucks in this economy.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I will admit that it isn't as bad as the regular 1500 and the HD series. I'm not a fan of how the fender wraps around to the front. Too bad they didn't stick with the Z71 naming. Didn't they use to have a ZR2 S10 that was only 2wd?

Z71 is the mid level offroader, occupying the same space as the FX4 in Fords. Mild lift, slightly upgraded shocks, etc.

ZR2 is the high level offroader, adding significantly upgraded shocks, front locking axle, etc.

 

[Mij]

Not going to get into the pros and cons of truck vs auto or models. But am enjoying the anticipation of BBI’s quest. Can’t wait for the final result.

Wondering, self bet, we’ll be surprised.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I kinda envy you folks that can afford (to actually buy and pay for, not finance for 8 years to keep up with the Jones's) any new truck, they're so ridiculously expensive now.

For me, it's not a daily driver. I have my take home car and I have my Camaro.

Like anything, pros and cons.

Not going to get into the pros and cons of truck vs auto or models. But am enjoying the anticipation of BBI’s quest. Can’t wait for the final result.

Wondering, self bet, we’ll be surprised.

My wife: Take your time and get exactly what you want.
Also my wife: Did you decide yet?

My wife: Get what you want.
Also my wife: Did you drive X yet? Drive X just to make sure.
Also also my wife: Did you decide yet?

INGO:

 

[Frosty]

Not going to get into the pros and cons of truck vs auto or models. But am enjoying the anticipation of BBI’s quest. Can’t wait for the final result.

Wondering, self bet, we’ll be surprised.

All I know is if he gets a Chevy I’m blocking him!