FBI raids Trumps home

[KLB]

That's a good point. On INGO, the sentiment for Holcomb has been quite negative. INGOservatives were mostly in favor of the libertarian candidate running against Holcomb. But, Holcomb won in a landslide. I think most run-of-the-mill conservatives are either neocons or chamber-o-commerce Republican types. So they like candidates like Holcomb.

But, I think this forum does represent Trump fans fairly well. If someone wants to understand Trump fans better, it's probably fair representation. Said another way, almost all Trump fans are at least a little conservative, but not all conservatives are Trump fans.

I think you are giving people too much credit. I don't think most people knew enough about Holcomb to dislike him. He had the R next to his name, so they voted for him.

 

[KLB]

That seems understated. LOL

At least I'm not a progressive.

 

[jamil]

"If somebody stole your car...."


Umm, if somebody stole my car, I'd want them arrested.
Regardless of political affiliation.
Or race
Or gender


But I guess that's so... 1990s.

If someone stole my car, I'd want them arrested.

If a Secretary of state had a non-government server, sitting in her bathroom closet, to subvert requests for copies via FOIA requests, which also contained classified documents, I'd want that person prosecuted for the laws they broke.

When presidents leave office, and take some documents with them, which seems to be a common thing, and government decides they want some of those documents back, there's a process they can go through to resolve that. At the end of that process, maybe the former president has to give some or all back. Or maybe the former president gets to keep them all. That's not something that requires a no-knock raid to resolve. Using that kind of tactic has purposes far beyond just getting simple documents back.

 

[jamil]

I would be hard pressed to think of any forum that would be helpful for a progressive to understand anything.

Why? Something I think is true. Not a lot of progressives act like they want to understand conservatives any better. When a self-professed progressive says he wants to understand the other side better, and acts in good faith to do so, I think that is quite possible. But he should understand that he's an outsider as much as if a conservative entered his world to gain a perspective there.

 

[BigRed]

Why? Something I think is true. Not a lot of progressives act like they want to understand conservatives any better. When a self-professed progressive says he wants to understand the other side better, and acts in good faith to do so, I think that is quite possible. But he should understand that he's an outsider as much as if a conservative entered his world to gain a perspective there.

Classic liberalalism good.
Communism bad.

It's not complicated.

 

[jamil]

Absolutely not.

The Gen. Pol. is dominated right-wing Trump supporters, not conservatives.

Is this one of those no-true-Scotsmen things?

I have no doubt, that even the most ardent Trumpers here, are conservative. Even though some may eschew some conservative principles when Trump tramples them.

 

[JettaKnight]

Can you help me understand the difference in your opinion?

I'm trying to gauge if that's a sincere question. But I'll assume it is...


Any any other universe Trump would be considered "The Elite" - he's wealthy, he's a New Yorker, he 's a TV personality, he was (up to some road to Damascus conversion) a Democrat, he's got elite friends, egotistical, pays the lips service to religion... I don't understand the attraction.

Then there's the way he held office, executive orders, massive spending, he lost the house, then the senate, and was a one termer. There were all sorts of worries about "Obama won't leave office!" then "our" guy does exactly what we were worried about - but it's OK, we'll justify it in our heads because it's our guy.

But to really answer your question, fiscally he's not a conservative, socially he's not either. What happened to the big tent GOP of Reagan? We've got blacks and latinos trying to get into the party but Trump is doing everything possible to keep them out. And conservatism isn't about one man influence all of politics.


It seems like it's become a party of fear - fear the libs, the CRT, the trannies, the immigrants, the FBI, the elections, etc.; and fear is not what makes conservatism great.

 

[jamil]

Classic liberalalism good.
Communism bad.

It's not complicated.

I guess we have to ask then. @LeftyGunner, what is your opinion of communism vs capitalism? You're "Lefty", so how left are you? Woke? Support critical theories? Who do you read and admire?

Or maybe I should ask, do you see yourself more as a liberal, or progressive?

Mostly correct.

Neither should be replaced.

Who will arrest Hillary? Who will arrest Biden? Who will arrest Fauci? Pelosi?

 

[JettaKnight]

Is this one of those no-true-Scotsmen things?

I have no doubt, that even the most ardent Trumpers here, are conservative. Even though some may eschew some conservative principles when Trump tramples them.

Fair enough. But you know as well as I that you're going to take a beating if you don't kiss the ring.

Why? Something I think is true. Not a lot of progressives act like they want to understand conservatives any better. When a self-professed progressive says he wants to understand the other side better, and acts in good faith to do so, I think that is quite possible. But he should understand that he's an outsider as much as if a conservative entered his world to gain a perspective there.

Because progressives are dumb.

They're the enemy, and an outgroup, therefore they are every negative thing you can ascribe to them.



Humans have a very real tendency to want the other person(s) to be "open to change" in a number of contexts, but they themselves don't want to entertain the possibility that they themselves might be wrong. It's really hard to have a meaningful dialog when both sees the other person as stupid.

 

[JettaKnight]

I guess we have to ask then. @LeftyGunner, what is your opinion of communism vs capitalism? You're "Lefty", so how left are you? Woke? Support critical theories? Who do you read and admire?

Or maybe I should ask, do you see yourself more as a liberal, or progressive?



Who will arrest Hillary? Who will arrest Biden? Who will arrest Fauci? Pelosi?

I thought he just might be left handed (thus in his right mind )

 

[Ingomike]

Any any other universe Trump would be considered "The Elite" - he's wealthy, he's a New Yorker, he 's a TV personality, he was (up to some road to Damascus conversion) a Democrat, he's got elite friends, egotistical, pays the lips service to religion... I don't understand the attraction.

Easy answer, he is despised by those in BOTH parties I despise, he is the ultimate outsider today. He wasn’t always, but clearly is now.

 

[ditcherman]

I thought he just might be left handed (thus in his right mind )

Nope, that was already covered in another thread like this.

 

[Ingomike]

Then there's the way he held office, executive orders, massive spending, he lost the house, then the senate, and was a one termer. There were all sorts of worries about "Obama won't leave office!" then "our" guy does exactly what we were worried about - but it's OK, we'll justify it in our heads because it's our guy.

Revisionist history much? The house was lost by the massive retirement of RINO’s that could not stomach America First, including Paul Ryan.

Then he gained a massive amount of votes that were only beaten by vote fraud or unconstitutional changing of the vote processes…

 

[Ingomike]

But to really answer your question, fiscally he's not a conservative, socially he's not either. What happened to the big tent GOP of Reagan? We've got blacks and latinos trying to get into the party but Trump is doing everything possible to keep them out. And conservatism isn't about one man influence all of politics.

Trump got the most minority votes of any republican president in the last 50 years. His outreach was unprecedented…

 

[phylodog]

Wouldn’t you prefer a candidate that actually wins elections for you?

Trump barely eked out an electoral college win against the least popular democrat in modern times… to which he still lost the popular vote.

And then he lost both the electoral college AND the popular vote in an election against an also-ran and a diversity hire.

Trump’s fans are zealous, but he’s a loser in the eyes of the vast majority of Americans, and more than a few Republicans.

Delusional

 

[jamil]

I'm trying to gauge if that's a sincere question. But I'll assume it is...


Any any other universe Trump would be considered "The Elite" - he's wealthy, he's a New Yorker, he 's a TV personality, he was (up to some road to Damascus conversion) a Democrat, he's got elite friends, egotistical, pays the lips service to religion... I don't understand the attraction.

See, this is where I think you don't understand Trumpers. He's elite, but doesn't advocate for elites. This is why he's called a populist. He uses the working man's language. He advocates for things they want. And, maybe he's not sincere about all of that. I seriously doubt he's sincere about religion. But, he acts as if he's one of them, regardless of his wealth. And even I have to admit that his policies were mostly conservative.

Then there's the way he held office, executive orders, massive spending, he lost the house, then the senate, and was a one termer. There were all sorts of worries about "Obama won't leave office!" then "our" guy does exactly what we were worried about - but it's OK, we'll justify it in our heads because it's our guy.

Trump's behavior after the election was pretty bad. He acted right into the hands of Democrats.

But to really answer your question, fiscally he's not a conservative, socially he's not either. What happened to the big tent GOP of Reagan? We've got blacks and latinos trying to get into the party but Trump is doing everything possible to keep them out. And conservatism isn't about one man influence all of politics.

WTF are you talking about? What is Trump doing to keep Latinos out?

It seems like it's become a party of fear - fear the libs, the CRT, the trannies, the immigrants, the FBI, the elections, etc.; and fear is not what makes conservatism great.

CRT is a problem. Grooming is a problem. Illegal immigration is a problem. The weaponization of the FBI is a problem. The changes in election rules, last minute, under the guise of covid, is a problem. It's not fear. It's an understanding of what is, and where it leads. And ignoring things that are indicative of future problems, isn't bravery.

When you see that stain on the ceiling, do you say, I'm not afraid of that stain. It's nothing. Or do you set about fixing the roof leak that it surely indicates before the problem gets worse?

BTW, I asked you a while ago to read some critical theory proponents. Did you?

 

[ditcherman]

I'm trying to gauge if that's a sincere question. But I'll assume it is...


Any any other universe Trump would be considered "The Elite" - he's wealthy, he's a New Yorker, he 's a TV personality, he was (up to some road to Damascus conversion) a Democrat, he's got elite friends, egotistical, pays the lips service to religion... I don't understand the attraction.

Then there's the way he held office, executive orders, massive spending, he lost the house, then the senate, and was a one termer. There were all sorts of worries about "Obama won't leave office!" then "our" guy does exactly what we were worried about - but it's OK, we'll justify it in our heads because it's our guy.

But to really answer your question, fiscally he's not a conservative, socially he's not either. What happened to the big tent GOP of Reagan? We've got blacks and latinos trying to get into the party but Trump is doing everything possible to keep them out. And conservatism isn't about one man influence all of politics.


It seems like it's become a party of fear - fear the libs, the CRT, the trannies, the immigrants, the FBI, the elections, etc.; and fear is not what makes conservatism great.

Yes! It was sincere, and thank you for your answer.

I don’t disagree with you on a lot of these points, and I think many are in that same boat. But I also see Ingomikes point here that both sides of the establishment hate him so he must be the guy. I could also believe that the left hates him for obvious reasons, but some on the right only hate him because they think there is a better way. So there’s a division among us of who thinks the better more pure ways’ chance has passed.

I also think that just because I would vote for him doesn’t put me in his inner circle of cult like followers, but we all get put in the same box it seems like many times, so we end up parsing our arguments up into these little points, wasting our time and effort self dividing.

It seems obvious to me that many people just see your name and think “here comes another commie progressive post” and really shoehorn you into some kind of corner without giving you a chance. Maybe you have trolled some that hard but I think some should give you a chance, but many seem so far past trying to see a different angle, especially coming from you.

I feel like a lot of the worst of the fear mongering has been called out for what it is as of late. Not all, but more.
It is annoying, to know that some can’t see the ulterior motives at play.

I’m not sure what you mean by trump is trying to keep blacks and Latinos out. Doesn’t add up to me.

Conservatism is not about one man, but we are looking for the ability to break up the establishment, bloat, and overarching greed for power and it’s human nature to look for a hero.

I believe classical liberalism as mentioned here recently by BigRed is a key to our common ground; conservatism and especially Republicanism and even trump supporter just don’t quite do it.

 

[jamil]

Wouldn’t you prefer a candidate that actually wins elections for you?

Trump barely eked out an electoral college win against the least popular democrat in modern times… to which he still lost the popular vote.

The least popular democrat in modern times was heavily favored for several months prior, and even right up to the election. So much that it caught all the pundits off guard. It was an anomaly that someone like Trump could win. Would a better candidate have won? Maybe. But that he won against someone bad isn't evidence that he's a bad candidate. What makes him a problem is he hasn't learned how to harness his speech.

I think the saying that, "It's better to be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt" was always meant for Trump.

And then he lost both the electoral college AND the popular vote in an election against an also-ran and a diversity hire.

Trump’s fans are zealous, but he’s a loser in the eyes of the vast majority of Americans, and more than a few Republicans.

I think you're not presenting an intellectually honest case here. Idunno. Unless you're just ignorant. And you don't strike me as someone who lets current events get that far from you.

You've not mentioned the unprecedented media campaign against Trump, some self-earned. You didn't mention how social media colluded to ban certain speech favorable to Trump and republicans, while promoting speech of those opposing him. You didn't mention the "cabal" (Time magazine's word, not mine) that came together to work behind the scenes to make sure Trump couldn't win. The money Zuckerberg paid to various locations to change their election rules to favor democrats. The mail-in voting. The suspention or relaxing of signature requirements in some jurisdictions. They ignored election laws to make it easier for canvasing (what Democrats call it but republicans call ballot harvesting) which heavily favors democrats.

So. Is Obama a bad candidate? Trump got more votes (74M) in 2020 for losing than Obama got (69M) for wining in 2008. Biden got 81 million thanks to the cabal. If it weren't for the rule changes in swing states under the guise of covid, and the media behavior, social media, etcetera, how many votes would Biden have gotten? I don't think anywhere near 81M.

I've been trying to give you the benefit of doubt, and you spit this dishonest ********?

 

[jamil]

I think you are giving people too much credit. I don't think most people knew enough about Holcomb to dislike him. He had the R next to his name, so they voted for him.

I called them neocons or chamber-o-commerce republicans. That's not giving *any* credit.

 

[jamil]

I thought he just might be left handed (thus in his right mind )

I mean. The first time I saw him post, that's what I thought. Just one of those abnormal handicapped people that does everything important with their left hand. I mean. Can you even trust people who wipe their ass with the wrong hand?