Uvalde Texas Killing

[Keith_Indy]

My comments in red:

"If the team knows (which they could have known if they had indeed had a drill at the school previously) that the door isn't locked. One of two simple orders are used "pull and go" or "Push and go".
A closed door is considered locked in all cases when a breacher is present, assuming the breacher has the means available to defeat the door." Was a breacher present? Did it have the means to defeat the door?

And I'm assuming "breacher" means one of those portable battering ram type devices.

The door sometimes locked with effort, says so in the report. School had multiple rooms in multiple buildings. How many doors?

School district PD has more buildings than officers, so that’s multiple school layouts and issues.

Not saying things shouldn’t have happened a different way. I’m trying to convey what the report says.

The Texas House report doesn’t read like a CYA circle jerk to me. There’s plenty of details to digest.

The bigger issue is the failure to lockdown and the complacency of security procedures.

 

[thompal]

Do people not bother, reading previous post or reading actual after action reports?

Within minutes of the attack, police were at the classroom door attempting to breach.

After the failed attempt, there’s hardly any gunfire for the rest of the time.

Yes, precious minutes were wasted until the final breach.

However, while the police in the video weren’t acting, many others were.

Some were evacuating children from other classrooms. That is one reason the chief gave for the delay. The classrooms across from 111/112 still had children in them and collateral damage was a concern.

Well, the "attempting to breach" must have been a pretty lame attempt, since the door was unlocked.

A great way to prevent further collateral damage would have been to end the ability of the shooter to continue.

And some police may have been doing something, but 70 minutes is an awful long time to "get ready" to do what training says they must do: IMMEDIATELY engage the shooter.

 

[Keith_Indy]

I’ll leave it for people who have taken fire through a door when trying to do a room entry to comment on the first attempt.

 

[Creedmoor]

I’ll leave it for people who have taken fire through a door when trying to do a room entry to comment on the first attempt.

It sucks, its called the fatal funnel for a reason.
Sometimes you get shot.

 

[bobzilla]

It sucks, its called the fatal funnel for a reason.
Sometimes you get shot.

This is the possibility. They know this when they signed up. So if you won’t do it get out of the way and let someone else who will do it.

 

[KLB]

Do people not bother, reading previous post or reading actual after action reports?

Within minutes of the attack, police were at the classroom door attempting to breach.

After the failed attempt, there’s hardly any gunfire for the rest of the time.

Yes, precious minutes were wasted until the final breach.

However, while the police in the video weren’t acting, many others were.

Some were evacuating children from other classrooms. That is one reason the chief gave for the delay. The classrooms across from 111/112 still had children in them and collateral damage was a concern.

There were children in that room bleeding to death.

 

[Keith_Indy]

Until you are under fire, how do you know how you will react under fire?

One of the initial officers in the stack that made the first breach attempt, wanted to go right back in. 2 of the officers in that first attempt had grazing or shrapnel hit them.

How many people crumble mentally after receiving hits?

Page 58 of the report

After the initial shock of taking gunfire, Lt. Martinez returned south back down the hallway. Following active shooter training, he began to advance again toward Rooms 11 and 112 in an evident desire to maintain momentum and to "stop the killing," but this time no other officers followed him.

 

[Keith_Indy]

There were children in that room bleeding to death.

How many responders actually knew that?

Page 50 of the report

The evidence establishes that as they arrived at the west building, the initial responders knew there had been gunfire inside the building. They heard it as they were approaching. When they entered, they could see a cloud of debris in the hallway from drywall, as well as bullet holes in the walls and spend rifle casing on the floor. Yet the testimony received by the Committee also indicated that none of these initial responders recalled hearing screams or having any contemporaneous understanding, as they arrived in the building, that teachers and students just then had been shot inside the classrooms.

 

[KLB]

How many responders actually knew that?

Page 50 of the report

The evidence establishes that as they arrived at the west building, the initial responders knew there had been gunfire inside the building. They heard it as they were approaching. When they entered, they could see a cloud of debris in the hallway from drywall, as well as bullet holes in the walls and spend rifle casing on the floor. Yet the testimony received by the Committee also indicated that none of these initial responders recalled hearing screams or having any contemporaneous understanding, as they arrived in the building, that teachers and students just then had been shot inside the classrooms.

How many needed to? If only people had the means to share information with each other.

A whole classroom of children was left at the mercy of this guy for an hour. I don't care how anyone tries to spin it, that is the bottom line. They knew there were children in that room. They left them to die.

 

[Keith_Indy]

We can play coulda, woulda, shoulda all day long.

The report states the many failures that day, both in physical security of the building and with the response.

I'll state this again, stating what the report says happened, is not an endorsement of what happened.

 

[Keith_Indy]

How many needed to? If only people had the means to share information with each other.

A whole classroom of children was left at the mercy of this guy for an hour. I don't care how anyone tries to spin it, that is the bottom line. They knew there were children in that room. They left them to die.

How do you now they knew? You're presenting an assumption without evidence.

And that's the whole issue with playing these coulda, woulda, shoulda games. We know what we know after the fact, and think that EVERYONE should have know that during.

The main breakdown after the first breach attempt was Chief Arredondo not exiting the building and setting up a command post. Everything after was a clusterfuck. You get no arguments from me about that.

 

[KLB]

How do you now they knew? You're presenting an assumption without evidence.

And that's the whole issue with playing these coulda, woulda, shoulda games. We know what we know after the fact, and think that EVERYONE should have know that during.

The main breakdown after the first breach attempt was Chief Arredondo not exiting the building and setting up a command post. Everything after was a clusterfuck. You get no arguments from me about that.

Not knowing is as just as big of a failure.

As I said above

If only people had the means to share information with each other.

There is no excuse for what happened. You might want to make excuses for individual officers on scene, but they all bear responsibility.

How could they NOT know there were children in there?

 

[Keith_Indy]

Not knowing is as just as big of a failure.

As I said above


There is no excuse for what happened. You might want to make excuses for individual officers on scene, but they all bear responsibility.

How could they NOT know there were children in there?

I am not "making excuses," I'm reading from a report which details the failures and proximate causes. BIG DIFFERENCE.

They SHOULD have known is far different than they DID know.

I agree, they should have known, all facts should have been collected and disseminated through a command post, and a whole bunch of other coulda, shoulda, woulda.

360 something responders, after the initial responding officers arrived, I assume that everyone assumed someone else was in command and control of the situation. What the active shooter plan said ought to happen is Chief Arredondo setting up a command post to direct the effort, with two others named as alternates. Instead, he's in the hallway directing things, and playing around with keys.

The person responsible for setting up the command post couldn't get out of his head space enough to delegate trying keys to someone else.

 

[Floki]

Breach, locked, unlocked, report , blah blah blah.

FACT, kids in classroom getting killed, scores of heavily armed, armored police unwilling to place themselves in harms way to stop it. Too bad the guy from Greenwood mall wasnt there, gotta feeling he would have rushed in blazing with no thought to shrapnel...

Again, today I die rather than spend the rest of my life thinking I could have done something.

 

[bobzilla]

Breach, locked, unlocked, report , blah blah blah.

FACT, kids in classroom getting killed, scores of heavily armed, armored police unwilling to place themselves in harms way to stop it. Too bad the guy from Greenwood mall wasnt there, gotta feeling he would have rushed in blazing with no thought to shrapnel...

Again, today I die rather than spend the rest of my life thinking I could have done something.

This. No matter how Keith wants to spin it, lives would have been saved if those officers had done their job, pushed in and eliminated the threat. Period. End of Story. There is no "buts", "coulda/woulda".

 

[Floki]

This. No matter how Keith wants to spin it, lives would have been saved if those officers had done their job, pushed in and eliminated the threat. Period. End of Story. There is no "buts", "coulda/woulda".

Amen and Amen

 

[Keith_Indy]

This. No matter how Keith wants to spin it, lives would have been saved if those officers had done their job, pushed in and eliminated the threat. Period. End of Story. There is no "buts", "coulda/woulda".

AGAIN I'm not spinning it, I'm telling you what the report says...

because that's where we learn what specific failures occurred, and what we can learn from it.

I've learned more from the report than all the jawing on here. From reading the report I know what OUGHT to have occurred at all levels. I also know no plan survives contact.

If school personnel had done their job, locks would have been repaired, teachers would NEVER leave a door unlocked, the shooter would have had a much tougher time trying to enter the building and we'd LIKELY be telling a whole different story.

If family and friends had taken more interest in this kid, maybe he doesn't turn into a little monster...

How far back do you want to play, coulda, woulda, shoulda...

That's all anyone is doing when they say, they OUGHT to have done X, Y, Z.

 

[chipbennett]

I have intentionally withheld judgment of the officers' actions (and continue to do so). But at the end of the day, something was inadequate. First, while I've granted that I can't judge police officers for failing/refusing to go into harm's way, I continue to find it egregious that they did so while also constraining other officers and parents from acting in their stead.

Second, at the end of the day, human decency and the innate righteousness of protecting innocent life has to hold sway. Whether students were being actively shot at during those 70 minutes is irrelevant. Those students were under continuous, direct threat of lethal force by the shooter for the duration of that time. That "training" could supersede human decency means only that the training was an abject failure.

 

[rooster]

I’ll leave it for people who have taken fire through a door when trying to do a room entry to comment on the first attempt.

I’ll bite, they had multiple people and didn’t do a stack at all. They failed basic room clearing. Stack up, if the first guy goes down the ones behind kill the bad guy. This is **** that pv1’s learn in basic it’s not complicated or complex

 

[Floki]

report report...

who give a crap what was written by those that failed their duty as human beings to protect the helpless.

like reading Himler on why there wasnt a Holocost