Worst Carry I've Ever Seen in the Wild

[Kutnupe14]

That's correct. I don't appendix carry, but it's certainly got it's place and has some strong points. I don't pocket carry in pants pockets, but it works very well in limited circumstances.

However that's not what's under discussion. Cavalry draw with a reverse cant prevents you from getting a firing grip, a fast presentation, and will make it difficult to consistently defeat the retention strap. Speed, consistency of draw, and surprise are consistently important in winning gunfights. Carrying a gun to defend yourself or others is literally deadly serious business. He's hampering himself, and that could cost him his life if he's called upon to actually use that gun. This isn't playing pretend at the range. This isn't comparing the width of the tie to the width of the lapel. This is something that could get him, or someone who emulates it, killed. If the hippy "as long as you're comfortable with it" crowd is offended, oh well.

The "at least he's carrying" tells me you haven't dealt with the aftermath of someone who decided to fight, and lost because he wasn't fast enough, his gun wasn't operation, he hit the bad guy but the bad guy hit him back, etc. That false confidence of the gun as a talisman leads to people thinking they can tackle something they can't. Then they pay for it. But at least they were carrying when they were raped, shot, stabbed, etc. Probably comfortable, too, right up until then.

This is a gun forum. Discussion of the pros and cons of carry positions is not out of the ordinary. You've yet to add any "pro" to his method of carry. You've criticized us and thrown your snarky "Welcome to INGO" remark in like we're insulting the guy personally. You called INGO out, I looked at your last page of recent posts, the irony was there.

If you'd like to actually discuss a valid reason to carry as the photo indicates as opposed to traditional IWB or OWB, appendix, or even crossdraw I'm all ears. Else you're just criticizing to criticize.

Ok, assuming were still talking about the pic in the OP, I've been thinking of some "pros" of the carry method. You, of course know, that it used to e standard practice (before widespread use of BP vest) to "blade" yourself when encountering a potential threat. I think in the method that individual is carrying, it may be beneficial, and even superior to standard carry when one is blading themselves towards a threat (this would assume concealed carry-like with a jacket). If a potential threat approaches you, you can blade yourself to them and raise both arms to keep a reactionary gap. If you have to present your firearm, again from the bladed position, you simply lower you hand, rather than reaching back, and to the far side of the body. I'd have to see it in action, but my thinking is that you could engage the threat quicker. Is that bad logic?

 

[Roland of Gilead]

Ok, assuming were still talking about the pic in the OP, I've been thinking of some "pros" of the carry method. You, of course know, that it used to e standard practice (before widespread use of BP vest) to "blade" yourself when encountering a potential threat. I think in the method that individual is carrying, it may be beneficial, and even superior to standard carry when one is blading themselves towards a threat (this would assume concealed carry-like with a jacket). If a potential threat approaches you, you can blade yourself to them and raise both arms to keep a reactionary gap. If you have to present your firearm, again from the bladed position, you simply lower you hand, rather than reaching back, and to the far side of the body. I'd have to see it in action, but my thinking is that you could engage the threat quicker. Is that bad logic?

What hand is he drawing with? I don't think he could draw with either with any consistency but I'm try to visualize this technique.

Those of us without vests are still taught the interview position.

 

[jagee]

Ok, OP just needs to go out on the town and find this guy again, then ask him what the deal is. Problem solved.




And where did the mandatory training guy go???

 

[Brad69]

I am right here!
Carrying my raven 25 loaded with the safety off in my back pocket!

Cancelled the training I was going to in in September.

I am just going to watch some you tube videos just as good!

 

[Kutnupe14]

What hand is he drawing with? I don't think he could draw with either with any consistency but I'm try to visualize this technique.

Those of us without vests are still taught the interview position.

Well for example, you are right-handed, and the gun is on your left (backwards), you draw from with the right hand. From the interview position, I'm assuming were taught to have both hands closer to the left side of the body, to have a quicker reaction to ward off attacks. Is it illogical to thing that pulling a gun from your left side, with your right hand might be quicker, than if the gun was placed on you right?

 

[indiucky]

Appendix carry is more dangerous. The proper way to execute a calvary twist is: Grip the firearm with palm facing outboard; Raise the firearm a couple of inches; Rotate firearm 180 degrees while still in holster; Bring gun up and forward as with any other firearm.

Makes sense but I was under the understanding that SASS and CAS do not allow cavalry draw during their matches.....

(And that guy is pretty impressive...)

 

[Brad69]

Kut

Can you draw a diagram of that ?

 

[Benp]

To think that "Carrying" is always better than "Not Carrying" just because you have a firearm on your person isn't true. It COULD be better if you can reasonably get to it and have a lot of practice getting to it as well.
If you are wearing cowboy boots with the firearm inside them in a leg holster and then blue jeans over the boots, yes you are carrying, but chances are the firearm would be discovered afterwards when they remove the boots from the body during the autopsy.

 

[jagee]

I am right here!
Carrying my raven 25 loaded with the safety off in my back pocket!

Cancelled the training I was going to in in September.

I am just going to watch some you tube videos just as good!

Whatever floats your boat.

No one here has said training is bad and people should not receive training. The point trying to be made here is that the training should not be mandatory in order to carry a firearm.

 

[Kutnupe14]

To think that "Carrying" is always better than "Not Carrying" just because you have a firearm on your person isn't true. It COULD be better if you can reasonably get to it and have a lot of practice getting to it as well.
If you are wearing cowboy boots with the firearm inside them in a leg holster and then blue jeans over the boots, yes you are carrying, but chances are the firearm would be discovered afterwards when they remove the boots from the body during the autopsy.

I completely disagree. The wisdom here, is if the threat is presented directly to "you." Ok, there may be a difference in the intelligence in how you carry. However, I think that that idea is overblown. You probably will never be the "target," but chances are, at some point you will be near someone that is. If you're in a mall business, when an employee decides to off his co-workers, and you're carrying in you purse, boot, or wherever is still preferred over "not carrying," as (since you're not the target) you most likely will have the time needed to get to your weapon before you possibly become a target.

 

[Brad69]

I seem to remember a belt buckle pistol?
So I gather that 90% of INGO carry in a "normal" fashion.
What are some of the unusual carry methods that work?

 

[IndyTom]

From a seated position (as in, multiple times while reading this thread after the mention of cavalry draw), I think my, uninjured, right arm bends easier with a cavalry draw than a standard draw (again, while in a chair). Maybe he drives for a living? He would still be stuck with an extra step to get the strap off unless he's really good with his thumb, which, with enough practice... There are a number of reasons not to do it, but there might be a pretty good one to do it for this guy that we aren't aware of. It is also possible that he just doesn't know any better.

 

[Alpo]

Makes sense but I was under the understanding that SASS and CAS do not allow cavalry draw during their matches.....

(And that guy is pretty impressive...)

I haven't shot SASS matches in 5 years, so I don't know the present state of the rules. I would hazard a guess that it is still legal for SASS, but not for the gunfighter category in SASS (2 pistols out and shot). I have no idea about CAS...those guys are closer to re-enactors with more stringent dress and equipment rules.

I got his record of shooting revolvers drawn from the holster wrong. Someone emailed me yesterday. His present record is 10 shots in 2.8 seconds.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Ok, assuming were still talking about the pic in the OP, I've been thinking of some "pros" of the carry method. You, of course know, that it used to e standard practice (before widespread use of BP vest) to "blade" yourself when encountering a potential threat. I think in the method that individual is carrying, it may be beneficial, and even superior to standard carry when one is blading themselves towards a threat (this would assume concealed carry-like with a jacket). If a potential threat approaches you, you can blade yourself to them and raise both arms to keep a reactionary gap. If you have to present your firearm, again from the bladed position, you simply lower you hand, rather than reaching back, and to the far side of the body. I'd have to see it in action, but my thinking is that you could engage the threat quicker. Is that bad logic?

The 3-4 o'clock position is fine to get the gun out of reach and partially concealed when you blade yourself. I would suppose you wear your duty rig so as the gun is at 3 o clock or slightly behind if you're right handed, 9 o'clock if you're a lefty. I wear mine in the same slightly behind 3 o'clock on duty, off duty, and in the few days a year I'm back in uniform. I completely agree with your logic of blading to protect the gun, the ability to twist your stronger core muscles a bit to move the gun a lot in the attempt of a gun grab, etc. However the position isn't really the issue here. I personally find that to be the best carry position, especially if paired with a second gun that's easy to access while seated.

So it's not really the position that's the issue. How do you snake your hand around and get a fighting grip on a gun that's cavalry draw and canted muzzle forward/grip rearward. You're going to have to be a contortionist. If the gun was canted muzzle rearward, you'd at least have a more natural angle to grip the gun. Still slower than a standard draw, still easier to entangle, still more obvious. So just try it right now. You've got your hands up, then need to go for it. Watch what your elbow and shoulder does as you twist your arm to get the knuckle side against your body and palm out then reach to where the gun is. It shoves your elbow out and forward. Now do it it with a standard draw. Elbow close to the body and backward. Which is easier for the bad guy to spoil? Once you're entangled, which is easier to access, elbow close to body and back or chickenwinged and forward? Compare to the minimal and close to the body appendix draw, and the strengths of that carry position start to shine as well.

As he's wearing it, the steps he'd have to take to get a functional firearm into the gunfight:
1) Chicken wing his arm into a position that lets him get some grip on the gun.
2) Defeat the retention strap, which is backward. The thumb break is on the side of the side of the holster your fingers would be on, not your thumb. So you're going to have to figure out some way to do that. The point of the thumb break, as I'm sure you're aware, is that your thumb naturally hits it as you assume a firing grip. Your trigger finger is not in the same position and is not going to engage the thumb break in the same way.
3) Draw...then probably work it into a firing grip unless you were really flexible and was able to do so with the position, cant, and height of that holster. With a 1911, an improper grip may not defeat the grip safety, so a lousy grip will do more than slow your shooting down and potentially induce a malfunction from limp wristing, it'll lock the gun until you fix your grip.
4) Rack the pistol, or at least cock it.
5) Present it.

This assumes the safety is off.

As opposed to traditional strong side, cross draw, or appendix carry:
1) Assume firing grip (which will defeat the retention strap if present, as mentioned)
2) Draw
3) Present

 

[Alpo]

To think that "Carrying" is always better than "Not Carrying" just because you have a firearm on your person isn't true. It COULD be better if you can reasonably get to it and have a lot of practice getting to it as well.
If you are wearing cowboy boots with the firearm inside them in a leg holster and then blue jeans over the boots, yes you are carrying, but chances are the firearm would be discovered afterwards when they remove the boots from the body during the autopsy.

Not every situation requires sub-second access to a firearm. Some do. Some don't. If I was that paranoid about the world, I'd either be bunkered or walk around with a shotgun at low ready.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I completely disagree. The wisdom here, is if the threat is presented directly to "you." Ok, there may be a difference in the intelligence in how you carry. However, I think that that idea is overblown. You probably will never be the "target," but chances are, at some point you will be near someone that is. If you're in a mall business, when an employee decides to off his co-workers, and you're carrying in you purse, boot, or wherever is still preferred over "not carrying," as (since you're not the target) you most likely will have the time needed to get to your weapon before you possibly become a target.

Ever responded to the aftermath of someone who tried to intervene and presented a non-functional firearm? Couldn't get the gun into play in time once the bad guy realized what was up? Hesitated at the wrong instant?

I have. Results have ranged from being killed to being beaten and gun taken to simply being ignored.

Recall the serial carjackers who hadn't shot anyone in all of their carjackings prior, but who murdered a man in his driveway as he reached for off body carry. He was not better off for carrying.

He was, for the record, a white civilian in a nice neighborhood.

 

[rhino]

I think some are focused almost entirely on where the holster is located on the body and either missing or ignoring your observation of the cant of the gun in the photo.

I would add to your analysis that it would only be possible to draw from that holster with any semblance of a firing grip since it's flexible. If it were a rigid holster, you'd have to pull the gun in a path that is aligned with the holster until it's at least half way clear and I'm not sure even a contortionist could accomplish that. You'd have to pull it out of the holster then get an actual grip.

The 3-4 o'clock position is fine to get the gun out of reach and partially concealed when you blade yourself. I would suppose you wear your duty rig so as the gun is at 3 o clock or slightly behind if you're right handed, 9 o'clock if you're a lefty. I wear mine in the same slightly behind 3 o'clock on duty, off duty, and in the few days a year I'm back in uniform. I completely agree with your logic of blading to protect the gun, the ability to twist your stronger core muscles a bit to move the gun a lot in the attempt of a gun grab, etc. However the position isn't really the issue here. I personally find that to be the best carry position, especially if paired with a second gun that's easy to access while seated.

So it's not really the position that's the issue. How do you snake your hand around and get a fighting grip on a gun that's cavalry draw and canted muzzle forward/grip rearward. You're going to have to be a contortionist. If the gun was canted muzzle rearward, you'd at least have a more natural angle to grip the gun. Still slower than a standard draw, still easier to entangle, still more obvious. So just try it right now. You've got your hands up, then need to go for it. Watch what your elbow and shoulder does as you twist your arm to get the knuckle side against your body and palm out then reach to where the gun is. It shoves your elbow out and forward. Now do it it with a standard draw. Elbow close to the body and backward. Which is easier for the bad guy to spoil? Once you're entangled, which is easier to access, elbow close to body and back or chickenwinged and forward? Compare to the minimal and close to the body appendix draw, and the strengths of that carry position start to shine as well.

As he's wearing it, the steps he'd have to take to get a functional firearm into the gunfight:
1) Chicken wing his arm into a position that lets him get some grip on the gun.
2) Defeat the retention strap, which is backward. The thumb break is on the side of the side of the holster your fingers would be on, not your thumb. So you're going to have to figure out some way to do that. The point of the thumb break, as I'm sure you're aware, is that your thumb naturally hits it as you assume a firing grip. Your trigger finger is not in the same position and is not going to engage the thumb break in the same way.
3) Draw...then probably work it into a firing grip unless you were really flexible and was able to do so with the position, cant, and height of that holster. With a 1911, an improper grip may not defeat the grip safety, so a lousy grip will do more than slow your shooting down and potentially induce a malfunction from limp wristing, it'll lock the gun until you fix your grip.
4) Rack the pistol, or at least cock it.
5) Present it.

This assumes the safety is off.

As opposed to traditional strong side, cross draw, or appendix carry:
1) Assume firing grip (which will defeat the retention strap if present, as mentioned)
2) Draw
3) Present

 

[Roland of Gilead]

Well for example, you are right-handed, and the gun is on your left (backwards), you draw from with the right hand. From the interview position, I'm assuming were taught to have both hands closer to the left side of the body, to have a quicker reaction to ward off attacks. Is it illogical to thing that pulling a gun from your left side, with your right hand might be quicker, than if the gun was placed on you right?

Cross draw were the holster is about 10 o'clock and the butt of the pistol is 11 or 12 o'clock. The holster has about a 45* cant is great from the interview position. But that is not how this guy is carrying.

 

[JettaKnight]

TL/DR

Does anyone know if the guy had another gun on his left side? Maybe he's left handed and this is his backup.

 

[hog slayer]

I think some are focused almost entirely on where the holster is located on the body and either missing or ignoring your observation of the cant of the gun in the photo.

I would add to your analysis that it would only be possible to draw from that holster with any semblance of a firing grip since it's flexible. If it were a rigid holster, you'd have to pull the gun in a path that is aligned with the holster until it's at least half way clear and I'm not sure even a contortionist could accomplish that. You'd have to pull it out of the holster then get an actual grip.

Hadn't thought of that