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What's wrong with this picture?
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- Jan 12, 2012
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You never know--you could have 17 attackers on your hands.
Just don't go to Circle Center
that was in direct response to your statement:
So instead of saying "no sh*t sherlock"... I gave an example that was given to me.
Another could have been a defective mag or any number of other things that could go wrong at the worst possible time.
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I was trained to reload the 3rd way Haley does it in his video. By framing the gun up in front of my face, I keep eyes downrange and can look it in. It works very well for me, especially as I am a KISStupid kind of person. The photo in the OP is similar to that, but without the gun rotated. I personally would probably struggle to reload like in the picture as the magwell appears obscured from line of sight and the motion from the mag carrier to the well would be kinda weird for me with the mag coming up instead of across. I also think that rotating probably helps get the finger out of the area of the trigger but I'm not certain of that.
that'd be depend on the situation.
I reload "in the facebox", as Coach taught me, but I would adjust that to point at a threat I had encountered while I topped off.
And if I recall, Jay Gibson had me covering threats while retrieving mags.
It's always fun hearing everyones various opinions.
Many times when I've heard Louis Awerbuck talking about reloading, he asks a semi-rhetorical question about whether or not you should look at the gun while you reload. This usually generates a discussion where most of the points previously mentioned have arisen. He usually mentions that even if you typically reload without looking, almost everyone takes a peek as soon as they reload while they are moving. I've watched a few people who believe that they never look when they're reloading who actually did look for a noticeable amount of time, especially when moving. They do not consciously remember doing so, but they did it. Video would be a good tool here!
I had a chance to try this out yesterday and didn't really notice a difference in speed, but I was definitely more comfortable. Now, I have another question...
I know the pic I posted showed there was still rounds in the mag, but we still operated the slide to chamber a round, as if the slide was locked to the rear. As a matter of fact, in that course, we were taught to ALWAYS operate the slide every time a mag is inserted, whether at top-off or in an empty gun. Additionally, we were told, even if the slide goes forward upon slamming the mag into place, we still had to rack the slide.
That said, in USPSA, most reloads are top-offs, with a round remaining in the chamber. This basically removes the need to operate the slide during a competition. Outside of competition, do any of you guys find yourself slower with reloads when you shoot to empty? Do you use the support hand to chamber the round with the slide or do you use the slide release? Which way is faster for you?
I know the pic I posted showed there was still rounds in the mag, but we still operated the slide to chamber a round, as if the slide was locked to the rear. As a matter of fact, in that course, we were taught to ALWAYS operate the slide every time a mag is inserted, whether at top-off or in an empty gun. Additionally, we were told, even if the slide goes forward upon slamming the mag into place, we still had to rack the slide.
That said, in USPSA, most reloads are top-offs, with a round remaining in the chamber. This basically removes the need to operate the slide during a competition. Outside of competition, do any of you guys find yourself slower with reloads when you shoot to empty? Do you use the support hand to chamber the round with the slide or do you use the slide release? Which way is faster for you?
The speed differential for a speed reload vs. a slide lock reload is about 0.2 seconds using the slide stop.
Racking the slide even under the best of circumstances wastes a second or more vs. using the slide stop. Also of note, in IDPA, just about every reload is a slide lock reload, so not all competition is the same.
(waits for people who just got done claiming they can no-look a mag in at speed while moving to say that the slide stop is way too hard because "fine motor skills")
re gun position: I've taken to dropping the gun slightly vs trying to keep the muzzle in line with the target. This seems to 1) help the natural aligment of the mag well and new mag and 2) improves consistency and time needed to get the new mag in by reducting the amount of distance the new mag has to travel. It's not so low it's an "at the belly button" reload, but maybe 1/2-2/3 the way up between a "belly button" reload and a muzzle in line w/ the target reload. I noticed in match vid from last year my best reloads were happening here vs up high, despite how I was practicing. So I started comparing the methods on the timer dry and paying attention to the % of bobbled reloads and decided to adjust my technique. Time spent looking at the gun and away from the target doesn't seem to be any different, just snap the eyes up when the mag is in and extend the gun back on target. It looks a LOT like what Rob is doing at 1:24 in his match vid in post 61.
re moving and looking the mag in: I find actually running / moving explosively and reloading to be conflicting goals. I can move fast, or I can reload fast, but I cannot reload and move fast. Reloading slows my running and running slows my reloading. Now if it's just a step or two moving at a pace that results in the reload being done when you get to your next position (most of what's in Rob's recent match vid), the reload can still be pretty efficient. If I have a long way to run, I try to get the reload done in the first step or two (moving slower), then actually run. We don't see too much of that in USPSA, but more in 3gun. But certainly I agree that if you are moving at all, looking the gun in becomes all the more important, or you'll just be stabbing at the mag well hoping to get lucky.
slide release is always faster, but has some cons (no, I don't buy into the fine motor nonsense and I know my gear will reliably strip a round... it's more an issue of timing). Shooting production in uspsa, slide lock reloads still happen occassionally, and sometimes un-expectedly. It used to be slidelocks were the 'norm' in idpa, but I haven't paid enough attention to the new reloading rules to know if that 'norm' has been affected. (idpa rules also caused an un-natural emphasis on tac loads).
-rvb
re moving and looking the mag in: I find actually running / moving explosively and reloading to be conflicting goals. I can move fast, or I can reload fast, but I cannot reload and move fast. Reloading slows my running and running slows my reloading. Now if it's just a step or two moving at a pace that results in the reload being done when you get to your next position (most of what's in Rob's recent match vid), the reload can still be pretty efficient. If I have a long way to run, I try to get the reload done in the first step or two (moving slower), then actually run. We don't see too much of that in USPSA, but more in 3gun. But certainly I agree that if you are moving at all, looking the gun in becomes all the more important, or you'll just be stabbing at the mag well hoping to get lucky.
slide release is always faster, but has some cons (no, I don't buy into the fine motor nonsense and I know my gear will reliably strip a round... it's more an issue of timing). Shooting production in uspsa, slide lock reloads still happen occassionally, and sometimes un-expectedly. It used to be slidelocks were the 'norm' in idpa, but I haven't paid enough attention to the new reloading rules to know if that 'norm' has been affected. (idpa rules also caused an un-natural emphasis on tac loads).
-rvb
riverman67
Master
If you're doing a slide lock reload in uspsa,you're doing it wrong. Uspsa is a game,the boiled down objective,shoot alphas as fast as you can get them. Slide lock reloads happen often in production and single stack because rounds in the magazine are limited to 10 and 8. The need to make up a shot sometimes leads to the need for a slide lock reload.
Slide lock reloads will always be slower.
On the street,in a parking lot or whatever.I don't get to make a plan or hear a proper way to shoot a stage.
My magazines are fully loaded so depending on the gun I have at that time. I have either 21 or 19 rounds available prior to the need for a slide lock reload.
I am betting that the fight will be over before I mt either of these guns. 1-7 rounds is the statistic spouted these days.
I practice reloads from slide lock and topping off,static and on the move. A few times a year I even get the dummy rounds out and practice malfuntion clearing.
Find some techniques that work for you , practice them,own them. Someone will always have a different Idea about the right way to do something.
Slide lock reloads will always be slower.
On the street,in a parking lot or whatever.I don't get to make a plan or hear a proper way to shoot a stage.
My magazines are fully loaded so depending on the gun I have at that time. I have either 21 or 19 rounds available prior to the need for a slide lock reload.
I am betting that the fight will be over before I mt either of these guns. 1-7 rounds is the statistic spouted these days.
I practice reloads from slide lock and topping off,static and on the move. A few times a year I even get the dummy rounds out and practice malfuntion clearing.
Find some techniques that work for you , practice them,own them. Someone will always have a different Idea about the right way to do something.
Are you saying this way would be better in general, or just better for you? I ask because most people will never get near the level of commitment to go ahead and put all of this on a timer, and then practice enough to make it natural. I realize that is how it should be done, but it just isn't going to happen.
btw I have no major arguments with the rest of your post or Rob's. To me the main reason to rack the slide is to maintain consistency between reloads and malfunction clearances. No doubt using the lever is faster. Somewhat equipment dependent for me being left handed.
maybe I'm saying a little of both? I came to notice the fastest "in theory" method of keeping the gun up caused some bobbles. I would rather have a reload that's 1.0 second always vs .9 second sometimes and 1.5 seconds sometimes so I looked into it more. I also noticed that quite often, despite hundreds if not thousands of reloads in practice, I often held the gun a little lower under match stress and those lower reloads were pretty consistently executed. It must be more natural if that's how I was doing it despite the huge training ruts otherwise. Is it more natural for everyone or just me? Guess that's the million dollar question... I guess if I were inclined to make $ on this I could name and patent my method and call it The Way, then start The Church of The Way. What I'm finding is it's not noticably slower, but is more consistent.
Is this so I don't mistakenly thumb the slide release if the gun goes click from a malfunction?
I get the current "one method to solve all the problems for the customer who is never going to advance their training/practice" theory / business plan. I just don't get why we assume students can never advance past that, and why we can never adjust our techniques as skill improves. We put a 15 yr old kid in basic drivers ed, most likely with an auto transmision, and get them on the road with the instruction they should go and stop with the same foot. If they eventually want to become a race car driver, we don't say "no, you cannot heel/toe the brake/gas while clutching with the other foot... you must use an auto tranny and either mash gas or mash brake but not both, and that left foot will just confuse things, keep it out of the way."
-rvb
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btw, I took a class once w/ a well known competitor, parts maker, and guy w/ a "tactical" resume that would make many folks here tent their BDUs... he actually advised bringing the gun UP during a reload so the mag well opening and your target were in line, so that you could best see both the mag going in and the target.
-rvb
-rvb
after noticing I was doing this in my match vids, I started looking at some folks on youtube. I found several folks reloading in about the same spot... Stoeger, Vogel, Leatham, Grauffel....
something I found noteworthy... if you look at TT's "perfect reload" youtube vid, he actually brings his strong hand slightly UP, getting the gun very high. That vid was considered the holy grail of reloading. look at TT's match vids on youtube and where is gun is at..... typically lower in the region I'm talking about...
0:47:
Travis Tomasie at 2011 USPSA Nationals - YouTube
compared with:
Travis Tomasie - The Perfect Reload - YouTube
-rvb
Got out to the range to practice on looking the mag into the gun. I didn't really focus on scanning, reluctantly holstering, etc. I still find things I want to work on, but what do you guys think?
[video=youtube_share;JQ4LCMUH02M]http://youtu.be/JQ4LCMUH02M[/video]
[video=youtube_share;JQ4LCMUH02M]http://youtu.be/JQ4LCMUH02M[/video]
OMG! Extremely short downrange camera guy!!
You don't usually OC do you? Do you ever practice drawing reloading from concealment? That's something I need to start doing. All my draw/reload practice is done with my USPSA gear which is not at all how I carry.
