What's wrong with this picture?

[Rob377]

I'll incorporate this and see how it goes. As for looking down at the gun during the reload, as the person in the video does, what is your take on that?

Considering that is me, I have to say I agree with it.

if you want to be able to reload quickly and consistently under any kind of pressure, you simply have to look the mag in.

 

[cedartop]

I'll incorporate this and see how it goes. As for looking down at the gun during the reload, as the person in the video does, what is your take on that?

Que, here is the way I have evolved on this subject. I used to think you should be keeping your eye on your attacker during the reload. I have since been convinced otherwise. If you bring the gun up into your workspace you can still see downrange, as well by looking the mag in your are getting the fastest AND most foolproof reload. What is going to happen in that fraction of a second you are glancing at your magwell to reload? Would I rather watch him fire a couple of extra shots at me while I bobble the reload? In a perfect world I will be reloading behind cover (I know, in a perfect world I won't be in a gunfight but you know what I mean), but if not, the most important thing is to get that gun back in working order as quick as possible. A quick glance at the magwell is the best way to do that.

 

[Que]

Considering that is me, I have to say I agree with it.

if you want to be able to reload quickly and consistently under any kind of pressure, you simply have to look the mag in.

That's good to know, Rob. Believe me, whenever I ask a question about firearms and training, I'm really trying to learn. I've been taught to avoid looking at the mag well and concentrate on my surroundings, just like drawing and re-holstering. Whenever I get back to the range, I will try it out, though. It's not like I'm good enough to really notice a difference and by looking, I may gain a certain level of confidence during the reload, thus making it more proficient and faster. I just couldn't picture what Burl was saying because he was talking with his mouth full.

 

[Que]

Que, here is the way I have evolved on this subject. I used to think you should be keeping your eye on your attacker during the reload. I have since been convinced otherwise. If you bring the gun up into your workspace you can still see downrange, as well by looking the mag in your are getting the fastest AND most foolproof reload. What is going to happen in that fraction of a second you are glancing at your magwell to reload? Would I rather watch him fire a couple of extra shots at me while I bobble the reload? In a perfect world I will be reloading behind cover (I know, in a perfect world I won't be in a gunfight but you know what I mean), but if not, the most important thing is to get that gun back in working order as quick as possible. A quick glance at the magwell is the best way to do that.

Agreed. I am certainly open to learn.

 

[IndyGal65]

No beard. You can't be taken seriously as an operator without a beard.

Rats. I knew I shouldn't have shaved.

 

[Roadie]

Que, here is the way I have evolved on this subject. I used to think you should be keeping your eye on your attacker during the reload. I have since been convinced otherwise. If you bring the gun up into your workspace you can still see downrange, as well by looking the mag in your are getting the fastest AND most foolproof reload. What is going to happen in that fraction of a second you are glancing at your magwell to reload? Would I rather watch him fire a couple of extra shots at me while I bobble the reload? In a perfect world I will be reloading behind cover (I know, in a perfect world I won't be in a gunfight but you know what I mean), but if not, the most important thing is to get that gun back in working order as quick as possible. A quick glance at the magwell is the best way to do that.

I am in no ways even remotely qualified to comment on this, but ...
Would the fact that humans tend to see motion better in our peripheral vision come into play here as helping to make up for the attacker not being in direct vision for a short time?

 

[bwframe]

... I just couldn't picture what Burl was saying because he was talking with his mouth full.

Sorry Que, I'll work on that.

I am in no ways even remotely qualified to comment on this, but ...
Would the fact that humans tend to see motion better in our peripheral vision come into play here as helping to make up for the attacker not being in direct vision for a short time?

That's the idea.
I try to keep my gun higher than even the guys in the vids. More along the lines of the mag well angled to the mag right under the target

 

[Rob377]

I am in no ways even remotely qualified to comment on this, but ...
Would the fact that humans tend to see motion better in our peripheral vision come into play here as helping to make up for the attacker not being in direct vision for a short time?

Spot on.

The time spent looking the mag in with a bit of training, is about 0.4-0.5 seconds.

Reloading a gun actually is a fine motor skill (unlike hitting a slide stop or mag release). It requires taking an object in one hand and inserting it into a hole that is not much bigger than the object itself held by another hand. (that's what she said) Trying to do that in a hurry on proprioceptive cues alone is no bueno. Visual input with depth perception increases the success rate by a HUGE margin. One of the key components of depth perception of course is stereopsis, which you don't get much of with peripheral vision. Try threading a needle, or quickly pouring a cup of coffee, while not looking directly at it, and you'll see what I mean. (If you burn your crotch trying the latter, it's your own fault!)

Mad-dogging the bad guy while you fumble around trying to no-look reload does you no good. It's effectively wasting a resource (.4 seconds of acute depth perception) that could be better spent getting the gun back up and running.

Now watch the logical gymnastics of the people saying that .5 seconds of looking the mag in (using depth percentage to increase the probability of getting the gun reloaded and into action, while using peripheral vision to monitor threat) will get you killed, but 3 seconds to reload the gun (instead of 1-1.5) is super tactical. Bonus points if they manage to say that you should waste another .8-1.0 seconds racking the slide.

 

[Birds Away]

This seems imminently logical to me. My attempts at humor earlier in the thread aside I read these with great interest as I am trying to improve. Thanks for the great info.

 

[ChalupaCabras]

Nit-picky.

There are situations where a high hold is called for. IMO, The fractional seconds difference between them does not warrent training two different ways.

As long as you do it the same way every time, then the reload will be smooth and fast.

I see no issues with the mag load being too high. Bringing the gun up into your line of sight is the best possible option.

 

[esrice]

Looking the mag in is ideal. Sure you'll have to take your eyes off the target for a brief moment, but that doesn't mean you sacrifice complete awareness of the badguy. You've still got peripheral vision and sound to help you. And let's not forget that you're hopefully not standing out in the middle of nowhere trying to reload while the badguy lines up his sights on you.

Unfortunately gunfights aren't always ideal, so I think being able to reload without looking is still an important skill to master. You could be in a very dark area where you won't be able to see your magwell at all. Or you could be running or moving explosively while reloading, making a glance at your magwell an opportunity to stumble.

Think of it like an ideal shooting stance-- its a luxury that you take if its afforded to you.

 

[Que]

I understand there are many scenarios and no particular tactic is absolutely correct except for the one that keeps me alive. When I got my butt kicked and mind blown after my first class with Shay, I better understood that most of my Army training was ineffective (my words, not Shay's), because my thinking was team-combat in war, not individual survival according to civilian laws.

Now, I know this is a very touchy subject for some, but I also try to separate what I can use in a gas station robbery apart from that used on a USPSA course. As for what has evolved into a very good topic in this thread, I see nothing wrong with what has been suggested. I'll just have to make sure I start practicing the "look the mag into the holster" option, especially for USPSA and probably for that once in a lifetime occurrence when I will need that .8-1.00 second advantage over a bag guy.

 

[Jackson]

I would wager the people who are fastest when looking the mag in have developed the "muscle memory" such that they are also the fastest and most reilable when not looking it in. (That is assuming we're comparing them with someone doing it the same way.)

I vote for doing mag changes in the fastest and most reliable way possible. To me, that's looking it in to the mag well.

 

[riverman67]

I try to always look the mag in,shooting matches,defensive classes,shooting at the range and dryfire.
Que,you mentioned somwhere in this thread that the picture was taken during a drill and the goal was to fire a few rounds, scan your area and then top off .
If I read that right,there would be no reason to go into super competition reload speed at that point. If you have scanned and deemed it safe to top off your gun, do it quickly,but deliberately.

I personally wouldn't take a working gun apart in that situation,but I understand the drill.

 

[Tanfodude]

Man, for some reason, you always crack me up whether you're serious or not. How's it going on your new turf?

 

[Que]

Man, for some reason, you always crack me up whether you're serious or not. How's it going on your new turf?

Pretty good. Came back for the weekend and got sick!

 

[Jackson]

I try to always look the mag in,shooting matches,defensive classes,shooting at the range and dryfire.
Que,you mentioned somwhere in this thread that the picture was taken during a drill and the goal was to fire a few rounds, scan your area and then top off .
If I read that right,there would be no reason to go into super competition reload speed at that point. If you have scanned and deemed it safe to top off your gun, do it quickly,but deliberately.

I personally wouldn't take a working gun apart in that situation,but I understand the drill.

If you've scanned the area and are reasonably sure there is no immenent threat, there is also no reason not to look the mag in to the mag well.

 

[Shay]

I want to see daylight through your trigger guard.

As for your reload position, I'd recommend you do it more in front of you with the pistol rotated as much as you need to to get the mag to slide smoothly in.

 

[Dead Duck]

What's wrong with this picture?

You're not holding a 1911.

 

[riverman67]

If you've scanned the area and are reasonably sure there is no immenent threat, there is also no reason not to look the mag in to the mag well.[/QUOTE

I agree