What would you do if someone degunned you?

[Kirk Freeman]

If de-gunned, I would re-gun.

 

[theweakerbrother]

I don't know that I know but only a couple of people who use them.

I'm also including CCers, because a shirt is NOT retention and they are just as big a target to a trained eye.

That's a pretty good quote.

Dom, are you saying this happened to you? Am I that slow? I don't get it.

 

[canav844]

IANAL but considering that my OC and CC holsters tend to have retention devices (levels II and III depending on the holster) and I keep my SA up, it's going to take a great deal of force to get to the point the firearm is taken from my, so it would seem to fit textbook robbery, a Class C/B felony.

IC 35-42-5
Chapter 5. Robbery
IC 35-42-5-1
Robbery
Sec. 1. A person who knowingly or intentionally takes property from another person or from the presence of another person:
(1) by using or threatening the use of force on any person; or
(2) by putting any person in fear;
commits robbery, a Class C felony. However, the offense is a Class B felony if it is committed while armed with a deadly weapon or results in bodily injury to any person other than a defendant, and a Class A felony if it results in serious bodily injury to any person other than a defendant.
As added by Acts 1977, P.L.340, SEC.39. Amended by Acts 1982, P.L.204, SEC.34; P.L.186-1984, SEC.1.

IC 35-42-2-3
Provocation
Sec. 3. A person who recklessly, knowingly, or intentionally engages in conduct that is likely to provoke a reasonable man to commit battery commits provocation, a Class C infraction. As added by Acts 1976, P.L.148, SEC.2. Amended by Acts 1977, P.L.340, SEC.32.

IC 35-41-3-2
Use of force to protect person or property
Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.
(b) A person:
(1) is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another person; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry of or attack on the person's dwelling, curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle.
(c) With respect to property other than a dwelling, curtilage, or an occupied motor vehicle, a person is justified in using reasonable force against another person if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to immediately prevent or terminate the other person's trespass on or criminal interference with property lawfully in the person's possession, lawfully in possession of a member of the person's immediate family, or belonging to a person whose property the person has authority to protect. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
only if that force is justified under subsection (a).
(d) A person is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another person and does not have a duty to retreat if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or stop the other person from hijacking, attempting to hijack, or otherwise seizing or attempting to seize unlawful control of an aircraft in flight. For purposes of this subsection, an aircraft is considered to be in flight while the aircraft is:
(1) on the ground in Indiana:
(A) after the doors of the aircraft are closed for takeoff; and (B) until the aircraft takes off;
(2) in the airspace above Indiana; or
(3) on the ground in Indiana:
(A) after the aircraft lands; and
(B) before the doors of the aircraft are opened after landing.
(e) Notwithstanding subsections (a), (b), and (c), a person is not justified in using force if:
(1) the person is committing or is escaping after the commission of a crime;
(2) the person provokes unlawful action by another person with intent to cause bodily injury to the other person; or
(3) the person has entered into combat with another person or is the initial aggressor unless the person withdraws from the encounter and communicates to the other person the intent to do so and the other person nevertheless continues or threatens to continue unlawful action.
(f) Notwithstanding subsection (d), a person is not justified in using force if the person:
(1) is committing, or is escaping after the commission of, a crime;
(2) provokes unlawful action by another person, with intent to cause bodily injury to the other person; or
(3) continues to combat another person after the other person withdraws from the encounter and communicates the other person's intent to stop hijacking, attempting to hijack, or otherwise seizing or attempting to seize unlawful control of an aircraft in flight.
As added by Acts 1976, P.L.148, SEC.1. Amended by Acts 1977, P.L.340, SEC.8; Acts 1979, P.L.297, SEC.1; P.L.59-2002, SEC.1; P.L.189-2006, SEC.1.

If it happens to be an officer attempting to teach a lesson or otherwise act without using that space between the ears and announce and identify first, then not only do I refer to 35-41-3-2(a)(2); but also include

IC 35-41-3-7
Mistake of fact
Sec. 7. It is a defense that the person who engaged in the prohibited conduct was reasonably mistaken about a matter of fact, if the mistake negates the culpability required for commission of the offense.
As added by Acts 1976, P.L.148, SEC.1. Amended by Acts 1977, P.L.340, SEC.12.

And for those law enforcement officers that don't identify themselves, and commit a robbery and attempt to file battery charges afterwards, go ahead and add this to the mix, as provocation of the attack by the law enforcement officer would be other means likely to cause the person to engage in the conduct...

IC 35-41-3-9
Entrapment
Sec. 9. (a) It is a defense that:
(1) the prohibited conduct of the person was the product of a law enforcement officer, or his agent, using persuasion or other means likely to cause the person to engage in the conduct; and
(2) the person was not predisposed to commit the offense.
(b) Conduct merely affording a person an opportunity to commit the offense does not constitute entrapment.
As added by Acts 1976, P.L.148, SEC.1. Amended by Acts 1977, P.L.340, SEC.14.

At minimum anyone doing this is looking at felony of robbery (and IMO (again IANAL) when their hand reaches my gun it goes from C to B, or if they are armed themselves they've got it at B felony) and infraction of provocation ; IANAL but I think that's grounds for not only a lawsuit but also filing an official complaint and requesting criminal charges from the DA; not to mention taking the steps necessary to physically defend oneself during the commission of the crime. And if he does get the gun I am OCing, then I still have the BUG I am CCing that I can use to defend myself against the armed individual should he not be immediately fleeing.

 

[HICKMAN]

I am just a guy who shoots guns for fun, and carries one for protection, I dont have lightning fast reflexes, or make split second decisions on wether an old man should live or die.

.......

.........


I am glad I didnt kill the guy, not embarressed.

Roger that.

I didn't see the original post that started all of this, I think you had removed it before I stumbled across one of the various threads talking about this.

No internet badassery here, just wondered if it ever crossed your mind he might have grabbed the guys gun and starting shooting everyone in the store.

Force on Force is a type of training that covers various scenarios like that with the use of airsoft or simunition.

Example

 

[theweakerbrother]

Roger that.

I didn't see the original post that started all of this, I think you had removed it before I stumbled across one of the various threads talking about this.

No internet badassery here, just wondered if it ever crossed your mind he might have grabbed the guys gun and starting shooting everyone in the store.

Force on Force is a type of training that covers various scenarios like that with the use of airsoft or simunition.

Example

I missed it, too.

 

[mms]

i guess im confused what actually happened to the OP

 

[KG1]

That's a pretty good quote.

Dom, are you saying this happened to you? Am I that slow? I don't get it.

I saw the OP and the way I understood it was it did'nt happen to him but he was a witness to it.

 

[dom1104]

Yes, I witnessed someone else degunned by someone else, as a joke / lesson.

 

[mms]

o i see, where did this happen what was the setting?

 

[dom1104]

o i see, where did this happen what was the setting?

Yeah, thats how I got in trouble the first time.

I really dont want to give any more details, can we approach it from a hypothetical standpoint?

 

[ATM]

o i see, where did this happen what was the setting?

It may or may not have occurred in or around Indiana.


That's all I'm at liberty to disclose at this time.

 

[KG1]

It might have been easier just to have left the OP up in the other thread instead of going through all this speculating and taking a chance of it getting distorted.

The way I took the OP was as an example that these type of things can happen and sharing it was a good learning experience.

 

[DadOfFour]

When it's a crotchety old dude in a gun shop that doesn't know where his own arrogance ends and the dangerous situation he creates by doing something so socially retarded begins.

He should still be considered a threat and beaten down even if he isn't one. Old guys have to learn too.

I'm sorry, I don't care if you're a 5 year old girl, an 18 year old thug, a little old blue hair with a walker, you make a grab for my gun, that IS a threat, and I will respond accordingly. The time it takes me to figure out you're just an old asshat doing something socially retarded and not someone trying to use my own gun against me is the time needed to loose my gun. I'll figure out that you're an old asshat when you're laying on the ground clutching your nuts and my gun is safely still under my control.

 

[ATM]

I know. I'd feel ever so slightly bad if I crippled or killed such a silly person when they probably only deserved stitches, but they'd certainly have whatever they received coming.

 

[CPT Nervous]

Well, since I carry a Ka-Bar TDI cross draw for these types of scenarios, if someone reaches for the gun, I drop what I'm holding, turn to face the threat, and stab the mess out of their arms and head.

Did I win? Is that the answer?

 

[thatguy]

Is "Hope they shoot to kill" an acceptable answer? At least then I wouldn't have to read thru the posts about how much of an idiot I am for letting myself be disarmed They would still be here, but I'd be dead and it wouldn't matter

 

[findingZzero]

If you had your hands full, and someone degunned you, took your mag out, and handed you back your ammo and set the gun on a table....?

These are the questions swimming thru my head at the moment....

I don't do hypotheticals, but one word comes to mind. 'Death Wish'..er, OK, 2 words. (I have giant cojones on the web)
My other answer was "yes sir, sorry sir"
p.s if these questions swim in your head on a regular basis, have I got some pharmaceutical suggestions 4 U..


'Just one man on a lone mission to clean up ....' must be a liberal.....and I only had one glass....I promise.

To all those who i might have pissed off, I might get to ECPR this weekend. I'll be wearin' the Mao suit and eating sushi....

 

[nick89302]

I'd say if someone has the chance to grab your weapon, you needed an increase in situational awareness or an increase in concealment.

I'm not anti-OC, I'm anti wandering around with a magic talisman on your hip that you believe will magically keep bad guys away with its mere presence.




And like the poster from SB, weapon retention is one reason why I, too, carry a TDI.

 

[jeremy]

I'd say if someone has the chance to grab your weapon, you needed an increase in situational awareness or an increase in concealment.

I'm not anti-OC, I'm anti wandering around with a magic talisman on your hip that you believe will magically keep bad guys away with its mere presence.

CC is not a Magic lock to keep someone from taking your weapon...

 

[daddymikey1975]

I just read all 10 pages and only 1 mention of a BUG..

I would also carry a backup (I do not have LTCH yet) in the event my primary carry weapon is taken (or an attempt thereof).. gotta think.. if there is a 'tussle' there is already a (most likely) loaded weapon being tugged around (whether in the holster or removed therefrom)..

Most likely not a bad idea IMO to try and put a BUG into the equation during the whooping that ensues..

Again, I do not have LTCH and do not carry (yet) nor do I have any training (yet).. just speculation (and I do lots of reading LOL)