Wasp Spray vs Pepper Spray vs Legality

[esrice]

This is a good thread for Trek. I'll see if he can chime in.

Ok here is a FB post by Trek of Blue Cell Protective Services on this exact subject:

http://www.facebook.com/notes/blue-cell-protective-services/stop-bugging-me/153611731376719

Stop Bugging Me!!!!!!

I have had quite a few people forward me a disturbing email recently regarding the use of Wasp Spray for defense against an assault. So we are all on the same page, please read the email below- but make sure you finish the article!!!!!

Here is the email text:

Very inexpensive self-protection….Wasp Spray


> I know some of you own GUNS but this is
> something to think about...---

> If you don't have a gun, here's a more
> humane way to wreck someone's evil plans for you. Did you know this? I
> didn't I never really thought of it before. I guess I can get rid of the
> baseball bat.

> Wasp Spray-A friend who is a receptionist
> in a church in a high risk area was concerned about someone coming into
> the office on Monday to rob them when they were counting the collection.
> She asked the local police department about using pepper spray and they
> recommended to her that she get a can of wasp spray instead.

> The wasp spray, they told her, can shoot up
> to twenty feet away and is a lot more accurate, while with the pepper
> spray, they have to get too close to you and could overpower you. The wasp
> spray temporarily blinds an attacker until they get to the hospital for an
> antidote. She keeps a can on her desk in the office and it doesn't attract
> attention from people like a can of pepper spray would. She also keeps one
> nearby at home for home protection. Thought this was interesting and might
> be of use.
>
> On the heels of a break in and beating that
> left an elderly woman in Toledo dead, self defense experts have a tip that
> could save your life.

> Val Glinka teaches self-defense to students
> at Sylvania Southview High School . For decades, he's suggested putting a
> can of wasp and hornet spray near your door or bed.

> Glinka says, "This is better than anything
> I can teach them."

> Glinka considers it inexpensive, easy to
> find, and more effective than mace or pepper spray. The cans typically
> shoot 20 to 30 feet; so if someone tries to break into your home, Glinka
> says "spray the culprit in the eyes". It's a tip he's given to students
> for decades.

> It's also one he wants everyone to hear. If
> you're looking for protection, Glinka says look to the spray. "That's
> going to give you a chance to call the police; maybe get out." Maybe even
> save a life.

> Please share this with all the people who
> are precious to your life

> Did you also know that wasp spray will kill
> a snake? And a mouse! It will! Good to know, huh? It will also kill a
> wasp.!!!!


The level of ridiculousness of this email truly requires a response as my concern is that people may actually take it as sound advice and rely on this information for defensive purposes.

Before I can dive into the silliness of this ass-hattery, We need to discuss the levels of force and how they apply to the responsible citizen. We citizens can break-down our force into three primary areas: No Force/Verbal Compliance, Intermediate Force and Lethal Force.

No Force/Verbal Compliance is primarily where we exist the majority of our lives- no force is required on another human being to go about our business. Sometimes we need a verbal, “Excuse me,” “Please let me pass,” or, “Leave me alone!” to gain compliance from another. During this phase, we have not had to use actual force to complete our goals.

Intermediate Force exists where another human being wants to put their hands on us in some way to make us comply or just hurt us. The fact that it is unwanted physical contact makes it assault in some form regardless of where you live. During an assault by a criminal, we citizens are allowed to use Intermediate Force to defend from the attack. This level is where a good hand-to-hand or Less-lethal tool option is valuable. Our goal is not to kill the attacker, but to neutralize the attack. In the actions of our defense, the badguy may be injured- badly. But our goal was to stop the attack without taking their life. If a criminal assaults you and you defend yourself with pepper spray which causes them to run screaming into traffic and they get creamed by a Prius- that may be lethal, but their actions caused it- not yours. (See: they assaulted YOU)

Lethal Force is just that- LETHAL. If another human being, cartoon character, or alien force is attempting to do something to you that could cause SERIOUS BODILY HARM or DEATH- we as Americans have the Constitutional right to respond in kind and kill our attacker. The beautiful thing here is that once we are faced with a lethal threat- the manner and tools in which we defend ourselves is moot. If some violent criminal pulls a gun on you- dropping an anvil on his/her head is fine.

Ok- so with that out of the way- lets look at this email.

The first paragraph:


If you don't have a gun, here's a more
> humane way to wreck someone's evil plans for you. Did you know this? I
> didn't I never really thought of it before. I guess I can get rid of the
> baseball bat

Heres an idea- first, buy a gun and pay for training. Period. (steps off soap-box)

The author of this email says that wasp spray is a “Humane way to wreck someone’s evil plans for you.” And then tells the reader that they can “get rid of the baseball bat.”

Right off the bat it is clear that the author has absolutely no idea of the differences between the levels of force. Gang, if you try to use a baseball bat against a simple assault- you are using LETHAL FORCE. The power and destructive power of a bat, rebar, ASP Baton are considered kinetic energy weapons by most jurisdictions and you can be prosecuted as such for their use.

Ok so now to discuss the wasp-spray itself. Lets consider the size of the canister first- they are huge. Now, on most days, I carry a pretty small purse (who’s paying attention?!?! Kidding) seriously- the majority of self-defense incidents we will encounter will be away from the home- and I don’t like the idea of lugging a can of Raid around with me. One could argue about having one in the car, but that isn’t a very good option. The truth is- there are hundreds of companies that have created defensive sprays that are 1. Easy to carry 2. Effective 3. Will match the range of wasp spray and most importantly Proven as Less-Lethal tools.

I did a search of ingredients found in a very popular brand of wasp spray here is what I found:




.20% Tetramethrin- A suspected carcinogen and neuro toxicant
.20% Peremethrin- Carcinogen, endocrine, gastrointestinal, neuro, reproductive & liver toxicant

(The 99.6 “other” ingredients)
Chlorethane
Cresoils
Dibutylphthalate
Dimethylphthalate
Epichlohydrin
Isophorone
Napthalene
Phenol
Toulene

These are ingredients that can cause nausea, vomiting, stomach cramps, skin, eye irritations, pancreatitis, nervous system disruption, dizziness, respiratory paralysis, comas and a sundry assortment of maladies including death.

All- I have no doubt that wasp spray will make a baddy shut his eyes quickly….but so will paint thinner, cobra venom, napalm, birdshot, acid, leprechauns fired from cannons, etc.

Can we see how using something like this for INTERMEDIATE FORCE defense is a bit ridiculous?

In today’s litigious society, a simple defensive action that had other options been used would be an open and shut case- now turns into months in civil or criminal court for using a tool for one task in a manner not appropriate per its manufacturer . You don’t want to be on record saying that you carry a can of neurotoxin for less-lethal defense!

For defense against a LETHAL attack- use what you have! Spray the bad guy armed with a gun with wasp spray and then light a match- then hit him with a Prius! But KNOW THE DIFFERENCE!!!

As for the “Cops” and “Mr. Glinka” supporting this defensive posture- Ill leave that to them, but I suspect that some of the cans of wasp spray may have been leaking in their pocket for a few years.

We are responsible for our own defense- so I implore all of you to do your homework before adding any defensive tool to your arsenal.

Until next time- Stay safe!

Trek
BCPS​

 

[sonofagun]

Personally I wouldn't want to be that guy in court explaining why I sprayed someone in the face with insect poison, when you could have easily bought a can of pepper spray.

Personally I wouldn't want to be that guy in court explaining why I sprayed someone in the face with insect poison, when you could have easily bought a .38 Special!

 

[cobber]

Bicyclists in the olden days used to spritz aggressive dogs with ammonia. I would bet that would smart, and it's not poisonous to boot. Heck, it's a natural cleaning product, so you're even helping Mother Earth.

I'm not sure how you'd carry the stuff, though.

 

[esrice]

Bicyclists in the olden days used to spritz aggressive dogs with ammonia.

My wife carries silly string.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr0SQU5s8FM

 

[edporch]

We live in a world where a burglar can break into your home, then hurt their self and then can successfully sue the homeowner for damages.

It would seem in today's "sue happy world" that to carry wasp spray instead of pepper spray would increase your chances of being sued and losing if you used it on a perp.
Especially if they could make a case in court that you permanently damaged them by using it on them.

I KNOW, it's not right but that's the world we live in.

Personally, I carry pepper spray but also have a handgun if a more "permanent" remedy is called for and justified.

 

[cobber]

To avoid getting sued, it's best to use things in the manner they were intended to be used.

While a continuum of force seems like a nice thing, if you're an average citizen how feasible is it to carry a wide array of options? If someone grabs you in a threatening manner and you fear for your life, is it realistic to warn them you're going to deploy OC, then deploy OC, and if that doesn't work warn you're going to shoot, and then deploy the gun?

I haven't done CQB training. What is the teaching on this?

 

[goinggreyfast]

Ok here is a FB post by Trek of Blue Cell Protective Services on this exact subject:

Stop Bugging Me!!!!! | Facebook

Thanks for the post and thanks for not flaming with the "this is a Stupid Post" comment like another poster. As stated earlier, I thought the person asking me was talking about some new self defense spray that I had not heard about.

 

[AndersonIN]

I think we need a STUPID POSTS thread...

I just look for this tag............Spanky46151............seems to work for me!

 

[Trek]

Hi all,
Sorry it took me so long to reply- things have been quite busy here in ol MI.

The force continuum is quite often mistakenly thought of as a ladder that has rungs that must be hit to progress or deescalate from a force-involved situation. The reality is that OC and EMD weapons are an intermediate force weapon whereas a firearm, knife or baton (kinetic energy weapon) are lethal and must be treated as completely different.

By your post- you need not even stop or contemplate the use of a less-lethal tool if “you fear for your life” as that is a justifiable lethal scenario. What carrying a less-lethal tool on your person allows is a tool to fill the gap between verbal commands and lethal force without having to go hands-on (also an intermediate level of force) at an “artificial reach”
distance vs. “at arms length/wrapped up” distances.

We as responsible citizens are far more likely to be in a defensive situation where the only legally authorized level of force exists in the intermediate level- using lethal force against an assaultive person puts the responsible person in the defendants seat as the attacker. As a person who carries a firearm daily, I find it truly important to train with both less-lethal tools and defensive physical techniques.

Stay safe all- Trek

 

[H.T.]

Can of Lysol and a zippo.

 

[trophyhunter]

If my life is in danger, and all I have is random spray bottles, they'll get whatever I can spray, including wasp spray.

How is wasp spray worse that .45ACP?

I'm with ya, if I'm standing in the garage trying to get the weed eater started and some thug shows up trying to jack my Cub Cadet and the wasp spray is the only thing close he's getting a face full.

 

[phred]

Wasp spray is a nerve agent. If a BG is is your house I say go for it if it's handy. When I attended the Gunsite course in Lebanon they mentioned having some by the bed for your wife to use if she's not a shooter.

Scott

 

[edporch]

I'm with ya, if I'm standing in the garage trying to get the weed eater started and some thug shows up trying to jack my Cub Cadet and the wasp spray is the only thing close he's getting a face full.

In that case I would too.

But carrying it around with you for the EXPRESS purpose of using it on people would likely get on the losing end of a lawsuit should you ever use it on somebody.
Sad, but the reality of our times.